I hate disc brakes - help!

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bgnukem
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Re: I hate disc brakes - help!

Post by bgnukem »

As a total luddite who has stuck with 8/9-speed transmissions, triple chainsets, square taper bottom brackets, QR axles, and all sorts of other unfashionable yet fit-for-purpose 'tech', I have to admit I like my hydraulic discs for the following reasons:

i) Smoother braking / better modulation
ii) Not wearing out rims every couple of winters, as they are so soft and have such thin sidewalls these days.
iii) Not having to constantly clean rims and clean out bits of grit and aluminium from the brake pads in order to try to avoid (ii)

:but I hate disc brakes because of the stiff forks required to mount them, which makes for more shock through the bars on the UK's joke 'road' surfaces.

Never had fade yet, but I've not gone loaded touring with them in very hilly places.

I also admit that cable discs were a faff, and kept rubbing every time the wheel/s were removed and refitted. Had fade once on a hottish day on gravel roads in NZ, where fairly constant braking was needed to keep the speed down, with the cable discs but not total failure. Just stopped and waited for things to cool off a bit.
Jon in Sweden
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Re: I hate disc brakes - help!

Post by Jon in Sweden »

Cugel wrote: 5 Jul 2022, 9:15am
Q/R axled wheels are more inclined to sit in the drop outs at a very slight variance to their previous position there, after you remove and replace the wheel. Even a teeny-weeny difference at the axle is magnified into a much larger deviance at the circumference of a disc.

"Much larger" is still a small absolute value .... but so are the clearance gaps between the disc and their brake pads, so a Q/R wheel is much more likely to rub after a wheel removal and replacement than is a wheel with an axle threaded into the drop-outs. This is why better disc brake frames use such threaded "through" axles. The relocation after a wheel removal is automatic and much more accurate (i.e. identical to the previous location of the axle in the drop outs) with such "through" axles, so far less chance of brake rub.

*************

Another possibility is a slightly warped disc. Again, the warp may be very small (too small to easily see with the naked eye) but since the disc-to-pad clearances are very small, a rub may still occur at just one spot on the disc. You can check it if you put your specs on (well, I have to) and spin the wheel slowly whilst looking vertically down the plane of the disc. But noting where the disc rubs and where it doesn't is probably the only way to spot a potential warp-spot

There are small tools that go over the disc's edge then act as a lever, so you can bend the disc straight. This is not easy to do with accuracy, as you can imagine, but it can be done if you're very careful with the positioning of the tool and the bending force you apply.

***************
Although wary myself of disc brakes when they began to appear on road as well as MTBs, I've come to much prefer them for their feel, especially the ability to modulate their grip to a much finer degree and to brake on steep descents without getting "cramp i' the knuckles". Once you know how, any bleeding or pad change is quick and easy. It seems much easier to install, adjust and keep-adjusted hydraulic disc brakes than it is to perform those tasks with cantilevers or even standard brakes.

Cable disc brakes - not so good.

Of course, many don't ever install their standard brakes properly, neglecting toe-in, pad-to-rim matching and so forth. They just don't notice. :-)

Cugel
I really appreciate the huge post and it's given me a lot to think about and work on.

I was out for a fast 50km today, and the rubbing was lessening, but it was still a bit scrapey on the front.

It doesn't slow you down at all, but it's just not much fun to listen to. I've got my eye on a rim braked bike on eBay and if I'm successful on it, I'll be selling the Orbea. It's a fine bike, but the brakes just annoy me.
whatfriends
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Re: I hate disc brakes - help!

Post by whatfriends »

How did this end?

I have to admit to not reading the entire 6 pages, but I must say that having used caliper brakes, normal canti, v brakes, hydraulic rim brakes, internal hub brakes, mechanical and hydro disc brakes, I would never buy another bike that can't take discs, and I would never opt for mechanical over hydro. To finish up, given the choice, I'll go for Shimano every time.

Yes they can be a pain and messy to set up perfectly. Yes they can make noises and get gritty and wet, yes they can be frustrating and yes they can fail. But frankly, so can every other of the above (maybe internal hub brakes don't get gritty and wet, but my experience of them was so underwhelming that they don't deserve another mention). In my experience, the biggest pro of good quality, well set up disc brakes is their stopping power in all conditions regardless of speed or luggage. That aside, they are really simple to maintain, and trailside pad replacement is a breeze.

Sometimes "progress" really does mean better than before...
De Sisti
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Re: I hate disc brakes - help!

Post by De Sisti »

Nothing wrong with rim brakes.
whatfriends
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Re: I hate disc brakes - help!

Post by whatfriends »

Depends what a person define as wrong or right, and on personal experiences I suppose. My experiences have shown me that i will never choose rim brakes over discs given the choice. Each to their own.
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Cugel
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Re: I hate disc brakes - help!

Post by Cugel »

If your bike is to be used largely in good weather and you have good quality wheels (i.e. rims) then a set of modern caliper brakes can be very good indeed. Not as good as the best hydraulic disk brakes but the difference is going to be irrelevant to most - other than those with a weak grip or those who ride a lot in adverse (wet, gritty) conditions.

We used rim brakes for decades without issue. Well, without issue if the brakes and rims were of good quality. Many weren't. This is also true of some disk brakes.

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: I hate disc brakes - help!

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
whatfriends wrote: 17 Aug 2022, 7:03pm How did this end?

I have to admit to not reading the entire 6 pages, but I must say that having used caliper brakes, normal canti, v brakes, hydraulic rim brakes, internal hub brakes, mechanical and hydro disc brakes, I would never buy another bike that can't take discs, and I would never opt for mechanical over hydro. To finish up, given the choice, I'll go for Shimano every time.

Yes they can be a pain and messy to set up perfectly. Yes they can make noises and get gritty and wet, yes they can be frustrating and yes they can fail. But frankly, so can every other of the above (maybe internal hub brakes don't get gritty and wet, but my experience of them was so underwhelming that they don't deserve another mention). In my experience, the biggest pro of good quality, well set up disc brakes is their stopping power in all conditions regardless of speed or luggage. That aside, they are really simple to maintain, and trailside pad replacement is a breeze.

Sometimes "progress" really does mean better than before...
Cable disc can be set up to mimic hydro on performance (for 99% of users, downhill racers excluded!), but you will still need to adjust cable and pads periodically.

Hydro brakes do not eliminate the need for regular inspection and maintainance, they certainly do not remove the user from looking to see if there is any pad material left, hydro are not fit and forget just because it has like cars auto adjust pad clearance.
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy - Some day Soon I hope
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whatfriends
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Re: I hate disc brakes - help!

Post by whatfriends »

I simply don't agree. In my experience, hydro brakes are superior in feel, power, control and reliability. They certainly aren't fit and forget, I agree completely on that point. But again, I'm my experience, hydro require much less attention.

I'm curious to know the outcome of the original posters plan...?
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: I hate disc brakes - help!

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
whatfriends wrote: 25 Aug 2022, 9:40pm I simply don't agree. In my experience, hydro brakes are superior in feel, power, control and reliability. They certainly aren't fit and forget, I agree completely on that point. But again, I'm my experience, hydro require much less attention.

I'm curious to know the outcome of the original posters plan...?
With hydro you have to look at cost - maintainability - ease of maintenance - in layman’s terms can you repair in all weathers out in the field?

In the past even shop owner mechanics struggle with adjusting cantis................in a heated workshop.

All brake types require an understanding of how they work to maintain them efficiently.
Disc brakes can be argued as better and easier to maintain, but still beyond the ability of a home user to keep on top of the pad wear (unless they inspect regularly) leaks and refurb, even myself who has worked on all types of vehicle brakes and professionally can find pads worn down when you least expect them.
Bicycles are peculiar on the basis that several mechanisms have to be effective but are normally light weight, which gives rise to reliability.
Motor vehicles can be over engineered for robustness but bicycles are different on the basis of weight and some cost.

Do I like disc brakes on pedal cycles yes!
Well maintained they are simple to keep an eye on with the correct advise.
They don’t require you to adjust by hand a universal joint to get correct alignment, once set up.

A friend of mine sent some hydro (hydraulic) callipers (I think complete brakes with levers) back to makers for fifty quid a throw..............so a ton just to refurb.........?

Yes Hydraulic callipers with hydraulic levers are best performance (self adjusting pad clearance) but what about maintenance...........................
On motorcycles where the master cylinder and slave mech are exposed to the elements you need regular changing of fluid to keep the moving immersed parts reliable, same with cars, change the fluid regularly and the system last several times longer with no corrosion.

Sorry for poor spelling no spell checker :(
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy - Some day Soon I hope
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.
whatfriends
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Re: I hate disc brakes - help!

Post by whatfriends »

Again, it's only my opinion based on my experience, and hydro wins everytime.

Yea it's possible to have a non fixable issue on the trail, like a hose failure. But having ridden hydro for more than 10 years on and off road, I've never experienced that, so for me, the constant benefits outweighs the potential issue. Changing pads is so simple on most hydros, that if you repair a puncture, you can change pads, on the trail, in the rain in just a few mins. It's not a major issue. Plus, I've never found it important to constantly have to inspect pads for wear. I can feel and hear when they need attention.

You keep comparing them to vehicle brakes which are totally different. No impact driver or axle stands required on bikes. I can change my pads with either a 3mm Allen key or a pair of long nose pliers depending on the bike (even the pliers version I've done on trail using an allen key...).

Still, at the end of the day, each to their own, and for me, hydro still win.
audaxjk
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Re: I hate disc brakes - help!

Post by audaxjk »

I’ve just put together a bike with hybrid hydro/cable brakes and now I’ve had a chance to use it a bit, I’d thoroughly recommend them.

I have Juin Tech GT calipers (their newer 4 piston version) set up with Jagwire compression-less cables and it’s brilliant - I prefer it over my 105 7020 hydraulic set up. The modulation is superb and the braking performance for the effort is almost as good if not the same. Setting them up too is an absolute doddle. Adjustment as the pads wear is very straightforward. Also you only need cable sti levers rather than upgrading to more expensive hydraulic ones. It’s a great option if you want to upgrade from cable discs or have a spare pair of cable stis lying around. The only issue I can’t yet comment on is long term reliability.

I ordered them direct from China (Aliexpress) on the recommendation of a poster on this forum and they worked out pretty cheap.
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Cugel
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Re: I hate disc brakes - help!

Post by Cugel »

audaxjk wrote: 30 Aug 2022, 10:40am I’ve just put together a bike with hybrid hydro/cable brakes and now I’ve had a chance to use it a bit, I’d thoroughly recommend them.

I have Juin Tech GT calipers (their newer 4 piston version) set up with Jagwire compression-less cables and it’s brilliant - I prefer it over my 105 7020 hydraulic set up. The modulation is superb and the braking performance for the effort is almost as good if not the same. Setting them up too is an absolute doddle. Adjustment as the pads wear is very straightforward. Also you only need cable sti levers rather than upgrading to more expensive hydraulic ones. It’s a great option if you want to upgrade from cable discs or have a spare pair of cable stis lying around. The only issue I can’t yet comment on is long term reliability.

I ordered them direct from China (Aliexpress) on the recommendation of a poster on this forum and they worked out pretty cheap.
All you say about the hybrid disc brakes is true. However, there are two (perhaps one) potential drawbacks: cable energy losses/cable wear & stick with use.

If you maintain the cables and their housing religiously, you can keep them working well. They'll never have the degree of fine modulation or the one-finger use of full hydraulics but they can be a lot better than simple cable discs, as you say. However, after using a pair of the hybrids for some time, I got tired of having to constantly re-do the cables to get them back to their initial performance. Full hydraulics replaced them and are fit & forget (the hoses and their fluid, at least).

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
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CJ
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Re: I hate disc brakes - help!

Post by CJ »

Cugel wrote: 30 Aug 2022, 1:42pm ... after using a pair of the hybrids for some time, I got tired of having to constantly re-do the cables to get them back to their initial performance. Full hydraulics replaced them and are fit & forget (the hoses and their fluid, at least).
It doesn't have to be like that. I fitted TRP Hy-Road (hybrid cable-hydraulics) on my most-used bike when I built it up three years ago and haven't needed to adjust either the brakes or the cables at any time - even when changing pads. And that's in spite of being too impatient to build the bike to wait for the special compressionless casing the instructions told me to use! I may get around to that eventually, when I need to re-tape the handlebars, but the brakes work very well nevertheless with regular spiral coiled casing all the way from lever to caliper. I can brake with one finger and lock the wheel if necessary, which I know since I did once instinctively pull a stoppie to avoid a low-speed collision.
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Cowsham
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Re: I hate disc brakes - help!

Post by Cowsham »

Through axles are great for hydraulic brakes cos they locate the axle and so disc in the same place each time you need to remove - replace the wheel. I've not needed to adjust my through axle hydraulic calipers at all over the two years I've had it.

For drop outs I push down on the bike while doing up the QR rods so the axle is as near the same place as last time the wheel was in.

If you adjust the two caliper bolts to leave it in the correct position after making sure the axle is fully home there's a good chance no adjustments to the caliper position will be needed each time you need to remove - replace wheel.

I've had hydraulic brakes only on my bikes since 2017 and have had zero problems in that time. I have 3 bikes atm - Arkose R2 -- cube acid mtb -- and recently a carrera electric bike all with hydraulic brakes. Even the Clark hydraulic brakes on the electric bike ( cos I built it to a budget ) have given very little bother.

I had a giant rapid 1 ( my first hydraulic brake bike ) for 3 years which was trouble free as well. I'd never go back to rim brakes unless I cave in to my urges to buy a vintage racer some day.

Cable discs nnnnnnooooooo.....!
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AcidRedStar
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Re: I hate disc brakes - help!

Post by AcidRedStar »

Cool watching Aaron Gate's epic stage win at the tour of Luxembourg on a rim brake bike. Where can you even get a rim brake bike these days, ebay?.
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