attitude to guns

[simonineaston]

How sad it was to learn about the tragic shooting at the school in Texas the other day. I'm trying to imagine how different the reaction would have been here in Britain. Of course we had our own similar incident in the '90s. What's strange is the differences between the attitiude that different nations have to the spread of guns across the society. In partic. the good folk in Canada have a way different attitiude to the position the majority seem so keen on, south of the border - I wonder where it all stems from.

[VinceLedge]

From what I have read a majority of US citizens would actually support some increased gun control, but the pro gun lobby seem to have the most influential voices.
Having friends in Canada and visited their attitude to guns (and a lot of other things) are much more European like than the US.
They also understand sarcasm

[simonineaston]

Praps that what it all about - the minority gun lobby being super-organised

[axel_knutt]

The Americans have a singular fetish for guns driving the ownership, but if you look at deaths per gun they aren't particularly remarkable compared with some other countries:

It's interesting to look at religion though. Whilst the religious aren't any more likely to own guns:

They seem significantly more likely to pull the trigger:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importanc ... by_country
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... death_rate

[Cugel]

Praps that what it all about - the minority gun lobby being super-organised

Not "all about" but one significant factor perhaps?

I recall reading somewhere statistics relating level of gun ownership to number of shootings pro-rata for populations, in which it was said that Canada and Switzerland, amongst other nations, had a similar level of gun ownership to that of the USA but a tiny fraction of the interpersonal shootings .... pro rata. This was years ago, mind, and things might have changed but ....

In considering various perspectives on USA social and cultural attitudes and behaviours, it's very noticeable that there's something of a zeitgeist in the USA for interpersonal violence as the go-to solution to any and all problems, large and small. Various cultural artefacts, from films to posts in forums (I sometimes look at US woodworking forums) seem to exude an attitude of macho-posturing and threat concerning any dispute or difficulty.

There are many aspects of US society that are worthy of admiration (I like a pervasive can-do attitude that can easily be found in many spheres) but the violence-solves-anything attitude is alarming as one encounters it here, there and everywhere.

***********
Then again, "the purpose of a weapon is its use". If you have several available they will (like all seductive technologies) whisper suggestions to you about various possibilities & scenarios for using them. In your worst moments, perhaps you will? I hereby confess that I've always avoided weapons (except a bow and arrers) because I don't really trust several of my infesting devils not to drive me to unwise acts, if they get the chance.

Cugel

[Psamathe]

The Americans have a singular fetish for guns driving the ownership, but if you look at deaths per gun they aren't particularly remarkable compared with some other countries:
Deaths-Own.png
It's interesting to look at religion though. Whilst the religious aren't any more likely to own guns:
ownrel.png
They seem significantly more likely to pull the trigger:
dpg.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importanc ... by_country
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... death_rate

What if you look at gun deaths per population? With so many guns floating round within the US, the gun deaths per gun are maybe going to appear low. e.g. for a given population a country with one gun death from the only gun in the country will have a terrible deaths per gun statistic vs e.g. 100 deaths from 100,000 guns - but 100 deaths is far worse per population than 1 death.

Ian

[Mike Sales]

I was struck by this recent headline.

Guns have become the leading cause of death for American kids

Even worse than cars!

Firearms were the leading cause of death for kids one and older for the first time in 2020, the most recent year for which CDC data is available.

Why it matters: The firearm death rate among children is steadily rising, as more kids are involved in gun-related homicides like Tuesday's mass shooting in Uvalde, Texas, as well as suicides and accidents.

By the numbers: Nearly two-thirds of the 4,368 U.S. children up to age 19 who were killed by guns in 2020 were homicide victims, per the CDC. Motor vehicle crashes, formerly the leading cause of death for kids one and older, killed nearly 4,000 children.

Another 30% of firearm-related child fatalities were suicides, 3% were accidental and 2% were of undetermined intent.
Male youths were significantly more likely to be killed by guns, while vehicle crashes claimed more females.
There were also stark racial disparities. The firearm death rate for Black children was more than four times that of white children, and white children were still more likely to be killed by motor vehicles than guns.

https://www.axios.com/2022/05/26/gun-de ... en-america

[Tangled Metal]

You've got to understand the idea that their constitution is about the government operating with the agreement of the citizens with the idea that it is the citizen's right and duty to stand up to a government that doesn't act in its interests of necessary by force. The right to bear arms is in part to prevent dictatorship or excessive authoritarian control. If politically things go really wrong there's a citizen militia with the capability to restore democracy.

I don't hold with it all but there's a kind of logic there but it went too far too long ago now. Needs change.

[mattheus]

Praps that what it all about - the minority gun lobby being super-organised

... and well-armed!

[Mike Sales]

If politically things go really wrong there's a citizen militia with the capability to restore democracy.

I wonder how this citizens' militia would fare against the U.S. Army?

[VinceLedge]

This BBC article shows the deaths in the States related to guns quite well, I thought.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41488081

[pwa]

You've got to understand the idea that their constitution is about the government operating with the agreement of the citizens with the idea that it is the citizen's right and duty to stand up to a government that doesn't act in its interests of necessary by force. The right to bear arms is in part to prevent dictatorship or excessive authoritarian control. If politically things go really wrong there's a citizen militia with the capability to restore democracy.

I don't hold with it all but there's a kind of logic there but it went too far too long ago now. Needs change.

They talk about their right to bear arms, but what they don't tend to acknowledge is that there is already an effective limit on that, as there has to be. No US citizen could house a nuclear weapon in their back yard, or have access to a rocket launcher. They accept some limits to their rights but draw the line in the wrong place. They want access to combat weapons rather than just hand guns and hunting rifles.

It is a great pity that they won't look outside the US to other developed nations such as the UK, France, Germany and Australia and see how other nations maintain a level of liberty without individuals feeling they have to arm themselves as if in readiness for a civil war.

[Tangled Metal]

If politically things go really wrong there's a citizen militia with the capability to restore democracy.

I wonder how this citizens' militia would fare against the U.S. Army?

As I said it's a old idea that's due a rethink. However most armies were drawn from local populace so when first added that amendment would have pitted ordinary man against ordinary man plus a smaller standing, professional army I guess. Certainly our family had an old us army musket out there until my great gran died when it went to a cousin of my mums. My grandad, American, used to tell me his mum had it standing against the wall in the veranda next to the front door. No doubt loaded too but being shot and powder I doubt it was much good in a home invasion. Sounded like a big blunderbus of a gun too. Civil war issued apparently or possibly earlier, certainly issued.

[Tangled Metal]

You also have to understand mentality of some over there. I knew a Texas engineer, educated at Texas state and quite clever too. He could not understand why it didn't share the stress relief activity after work on a Friday of drinking beer and shooting bottles in my backyard. It blew his mind that there was gun control over here.

I am not exaggerating I am actually understating it. I had a 2 minute phonecard about the project and a 20 minute explanation of the concept of gun control. I joked at first of having a half dozen heavily armed police pointing guns at me if I started to shoot bottles of the backyard wall. That was minute 3 of the call in the social bit. The rest was trying too get him to understand. It kept coming back to the idea that he could understand control of 50mm anti tank or anti aircraft but semi automatics are OK. I said even waving replicas would get that response.

Texas is the state where it's not uncommon for restaurants to have cloakrooms for coats, cowboy hats and rifles/handguns. And they often have policies on handing spurs in too! Not like that everywhere but I have had enough British colleagues come back telling me about this sort of thing to believe it. Texas is not completely alone with this mentality.

[Mick F]

If we all carried a loaded gun, every single one of us, nobody would get shot.