attitude to guns

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Vorpal
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Re: attitude to guns

Post by Vorpal »

reohn2 wrote: 3 Jun 2022, 9:15am
Mick F wrote: 3 Jun 2022, 8:53am I heard on R4 this morning, that there had been 200odd mass shootings in the USA so far this year.
Most never even get a mention in the press.

Can't remember the actual figure, but it was 200odd. They also said a "mass shooting" was defined as three people or more.
If true,and I've no reason to doubt it,that's incredible!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... es_in_2022
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pwa
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Re: attitude to guns

Post by pwa »

Vorpal wrote: 3 Jun 2022, 9:26am
pwa wrote: 3 Jun 2022, 7:05am And even if it were "necessary" it might not prove useful in practice. If you have a gun to protect yourself against an armed nutter, it is only useful if you are as quick at drawing the gun as your assailant is, which you probably won't be.

I live surrounded by countryside and I currently know nobody who has any type of gun. I have friends who live in a large farmhouse and who have free roaming hens and geese, and even they don't have a gun. The only guns I ever hear are used on pheasant shoots a couple of miles away. Shotguns. Two shots and you have to reload.
I have done a couple of tours where I carried pepper spray. That was a combination of where I was going, some relatively recent incidents that made me worried, and likelihood of wildlife / loose dog encounters. My biggest problem as a 20-something female touring solo in the USA was encounters with men who thought they could take advantage of me. Or just thought a bit of casual harassment would be fun, or something. :twisted:

I never used the pepper spray, and never felt the need for a firearm.
Yes, it does focus the mind when you feel you might be required to defend yourself. I used to do landscaping work in dodgy neighbourhoods and mostly felt safe, but I was threatened a couple of times. My weapon of choice, had I needed it, would have been a spade, used in a vigorous jabbing style aimed at the face. No mucking about. A spade gives you the chance of avoiding the assailant getting too close. It is also by your side and possibly already in your hand, so having it there does not mean confrontation. But I knew what I was going to do if things got really nasty. I had the plan. I had the same plan for rogue dogs. The need never arose. Banter was my first defence and it always worked.
thirdcrank
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Re: attitude to guns

Post by thirdcrank »

Does banter work on dogs?
Ben@Forest
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Re: attitude to guns

Post by Ben@Forest »

pwa wrote: 3 Jun 2022, 7:05amAnd even if it were "necessary" it might not prove useful in practice. If you have a gun to protect yourself against an armed nutter, it is only useful if you are as quick at drawing the gun as your assailant is, which you probably won't be.
A few years ago l read an article on carrying unconcealed weapons in the US which quoted a statistic that women carrying an unconcealed handgun were more likely to be mugged FOR the handgun. I don't know whether that was US nationwide or a particular state or city but being threatened with a knife or even a fist before you can get a shot off is entirely feasible.
Vorpal
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Re: attitude to guns

Post by Vorpal »

Ben@Forest wrote: 3 Jun 2022, 10:15am
pwa wrote: 3 Jun 2022, 7:05amAnd even if it were "necessary" it might not prove useful in practice. If you have a gun to protect yourself against an armed nutter, it is only useful if you are as quick at drawing the gun as your assailant is, which you probably won't be.
A few years ago l read an article on carrying unconcealed weapons in the US which quoted a statistic that women carrying an unconcealed handgun were more likely to be mugged FOR the handgun. I don't know whether that was US nationwide or a particular state or city but being threatened with a knife or even a fist before you can get a shot off is entirely feasible.
Statistically people who own guns are more likely to die by violence. And the 'good guy with a gun' is a myth.
old, but still valid: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/how ... an-fantasy
more recent: https://www.vox.com/2022/5/25/23140519/ ... od-guy-gun
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
thirdcrank
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Re: attitude to guns

Post by thirdcrank »

I'm amazed that anybody living on the mainland of GB would even bother with the broad argument that the way to deal with gun crime is more guns. IMO, the big difference between here and the US is that Americans - or an influential number of Americans - are socialised into believing that argument and we Brits can only pity them over this.

IMO the more strongly the authorities bear down on firearms the better.
reohn2
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Re: attitude to guns

Post by reohn2 »

thirdcrank wrote: 3 Jun 2022, 10:45am I'm amazed that anybody living on the mainland of GB would even bother with the broad argument that the way to deal with gun crime is more guns. IMO, the big difference between here and the US is that Americans - or an influential number of Americans - are socialised into believing that argument and we Brits can only pity them over this.

IMO the more strongly the authorities bear down on firearms the better.
Whilst I agree,as I mentioned above,the US problem is one of illegal guns as much as legal ones,how they get the cat back in the bag,if indeed the USA can,both physically and socially,is a major problem for them.
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Vorpal
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Re: attitude to guns

Post by Vorpal »

reohn2 wrote: 3 Jun 2022, 3:44pm
Whilst I agree,as I mentioned above,the US problem is one of illegal guns as much as legal ones,how they get the cat back in the bag,if indeed the USA can,both physically and socially,is a major problem for them.
It would require a massive program of amnesty, buy-back, and licencing. I don't think it is insurmountable, especially since longer term, it is bound to be economically justifiable. Buying back guns and implementing licencing is demonstrably less expensive than the deaths, medical care, law enforcement and security costs of allowing millions of guns to remain in the hands of violent individuals.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
iandriver
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Re: attitude to guns

Post by iandriver »

I forget the exact incident, but a couple of years ago, where the gunman was shot dead at the end by a member of the public. The wild west attitude of joy from some of the authorities that this guy had got what was coming to him was almost as shocking as the incident.

Although the amount of guns is a massive part of the probem, the scale of acceptance for discharging them in a public place seems to be the big difference between the USA and the other gun owning countries to me.
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Mike Sales
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Re: attitude to guns

Post by Mike Sales »

Vorpal wrote: 3 Jun 2022, 4:03pm
reohn2 wrote: 3 Jun 2022, 3:44pm
Whilst I agree,as I mentioned above,the US problem is one of illegal guns as much as legal ones,how they get the cat back in the bag,if indeed the USA can,both physically and socially,is a major problem for them.
It would require a massive program of amnesty, buy-back, and licencing. I don't think it is insurmountable, especially since longer term, it is bound to be economically justifiable. Buying back guns and implementing licencing is demonstrably less expensive than the deaths, medical care, law enforcement and security costs of allowing millions of guns to remain in the hands of violent individuals.
There is also the attitude,
"I'll give you my gun when you pry (or take) it from my cold, dead hands"
Popularised by Charlton Chestwig.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_my_cold,_dead_hands
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
thirdcrank
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Re: attitude to guns

Post by thirdcrank »

Vorpal wrote: 3 Jun 2022, 4:03pm (... )
It would require a massive program of amnesty, buy-back, and licencing. I don't think it is insurmountable, especially since longer term, it is bound to be economically justifiable. Buying back guns and implementing licencing is demonstrably less expensive than the deaths, medical care, law enforcement and security costs of allowing millions of guns to remain in the hands of violent individuals.
I admire your optimism and your knowledge of the US is obviously so much greater than mine. I had assumed that the weight of American public opinion was against any significant reform.

Unfortunately, things seem to be getting worse here. That's only my impression - not based on any data
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Re: attitude to guns

Post by Vorpal »

iandriver wrote: 3 Jun 2022, 4:06pm I forget the exact incident, but a couple of years ago, where the gunman was shot dead at the end by a member of the public. The wild west attitude of joy from some of the authorities that this guy had got what was coming to him was almost as shocking as the incident.

Although the amount of guns is a massive part of the probem, the scale of acceptance for discharging them in a public place seems to be the big difference between the USA and the other gun owning countries to me.
This happens occasionally, and often makes international news because the gun lobby hail it as an example of why everyone should have the right to carry guns. It's also not terribly unusual that the hero is shot by police because they cannot tell the difference between a malicious active shooter and a someone trying to stop them.

Despite the prevalence of guns in the USA, gun violence is much more likely to be stopped by unarmed members of the public than armed. But they don't talk about that.

According to an FBI report:

There were 160 active shooter/mass shooting incidents between 2000 and 2013;
Five of the mass shooting incidents were ended by armed civilians who subdued the shooter
21 of the incidents ended with unarmed citizens subduing the shooter
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/act ... 1.pdf/view

This research has compiled a list of incidents which were stopped by an armed member of the public:
https://crimeresearch.org/2022/05/uber- ... -shooting/
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Mike Sales
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Re: attitude to guns

Post by Mike Sales »

I have read that you are more likely to be killed by your own gun than save your life by using it.
Eastwood's "are you feeling lucky" attitude is, for us less macho types, a silly fantasy.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Vorpal
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Posts: 20700
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: attitude to guns

Post by Vorpal »

thirdcrank wrote: 3 Jun 2022, 4:26pm
Vorpal wrote: 3 Jun 2022, 4:03pm (... )
It would require a massive program of amnesty, buy-back, and licencing. I don't think it is insurmountable, especially since longer term, it is bound to be economically justifiable. Buying back guns and implementing licencing is demonstrably less expensive than the deaths, medical care, law enforcement and security costs of allowing millions of guns to remain in the hands of violent individuals.
I admire your optimism and your knowledge of the US is obviously so much greater than mine. I had assumed that the weight of American public opinion was against any significant reform.

Unfortunately, things seem to be getting worse here. That's only my impression - not based on any data
The majority of US Americans are in favour of reform. It is, however, politically problematic due to 2 things.
-the amount of money that lobbying organisations such as the NRA give to prominent politicians
-the filibuster

https://elections.bradyunited.org/take- ... s-senators
https://www.bradyunited.org/program/dem ... filibuster
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filibuste ... tes_Senate
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
reohn2
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Re: attitude to guns

Post by reohn2 »

Vorpal wrote: 3 Jun 2022, 4:03pm
reohn2 wrote: 3 Jun 2022, 3:44pm
Whilst I agree,as I mentioned above,the US problem is one of illegal guns as much as legal ones,how they get the cat back in the bag,if indeed the USA can,both physically and socially,is a major problem for them.
It would require a massive program of amnesty, buy-back, and licencing. I don't think it is insurmountable, especially since longer term, it is bound to be economically justifiable. Buying back guns and implementing licencing is demonstrably less expensive than the deaths, medical care, law enforcement and security costs of allowing millions of guns to remain in the hands of violent individuals.
Only snag being an insurmountable political agenda!
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