IOM TT Races - Death Rate

[Mike Sales]

The IoM tourist board rely on the TT for a huge amount of revenue,and IMO the TT wouldn't be allowed were to be considered starting it today.

I was once in Douglas Harbour as the ferry was loading at the end of TT week. Quite noisy.
I have also been there in Cycling Week. Begged a Manx Week casquette. It's a pity it ended.

[pwa]

My 2d's worth
IoM racers know exactly what they're getting into,if they don't they shouldn't be there,to say they don't understand the risks is to not understand motorcycle road racing.
The IoM is ridden on ordinary roads with all the associated street funiture(kerbs,unprotected walls,fences and light standards,etc,etc) and the risks such an environment creates for the riders,the circuit is recognised as the most dangerous in the world.It is from a different era when rider safety wasn't as high on organisers agenda.
The riders are incredibly skilled individuals,but as with any kind of high speed motorsport there is a risk of the unknown and unpredictable but without the gravel traps and soft protective padding.
The circuit was removed from the GP calender in the early 70's IIRC,because of the riders protestations of that unreasonable danger,and that was when track racing was far more dangerous that it is now.

The IoM tourist board rely on the TT for a huge amount of revenue,and IMO the TT wouldn't be allowed were to be considered starting it today.

I make no judgement on the IoM TT one way or the other just telling it as I see it,but that said,it has claimed many lives of people searching for glory.
Their choice.

People interested in racing motorcycles do understand the risk involved. I used to know someone who raced motorcycles and he was very aware of it, and the anxiety it gave his family. But as you say, it is their passion and their choice.

[Mike Sales]

People interested in racing motorcycles do understand the risk involved. I used to know someone who raced motorcycles and he was very aware of it, and the anxiety it gave his family. But as you say, it is their passion and their choice.

Yes. I think people who do things where the penalty for a mistake can be high are well aware of the dangers and enjoy using their skill and judgement to stay the right side of the line. Occasionally they get it wrong, but the danger is the spice which makes the experience so much more vivid than daily life, and so much more rewarding.
The dangers are, after all, very obvious.

Here is a advice from Edward Whymper, who was the first to climb the Matterhorn, but four of his companions fell to their death on the descent.

“Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are nought without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste; look well to each step; and from the beginning think what may be the end.”
― Edward Whymper, Scrambles Amongst the Alps

[pete75]

Not Lindsey Porter?

Yes.

His dad tried to buy one of my Suzukis for him to race. Think he drives a taxi in Spalding now - hopefully in a more sedate manner.

[firedfromthecircus]

Interesting that a discussion on risk of some other activity is happening on a cycling forum. Cycling as transportation has a chance of death 5 times higher than driving. Do all cyclists know this fact?
I will state my belief that IOM TT racers are more aware of the risk to them than cyclists are of their own risk factor. But even those who do know the risks still continue in their pursuit. Thank goodness we are still allowed to!

[Mike Sales]

Cycling as transportation has a chance of death 5 times higher than driving. Do all cyclists know this fact?

Is that per mile, per hour, or per journey?
What I notice is that cycling risks are less under your control than in some sports.

[firedfromthecircus]

Cycling as transportation has a chance of death 5 times higher than driving. Do all cyclists know this fact?

Is that per mile, per hour, or per journey?
What I notice is that cycling risks are less under your control than in some sports.

Per hour. Source here.

[Tangled Metal]

I heard that IoM hospital has learnt how to treat RTA bikers and supposedly a centre of excellence in it. Another consideration for risk analysis perhaps?

I'm not a fan of bikers who ride bikes fast whether on races or country roads. I don't like the noise pollution or the regulations concerning exhaust silencers. I worked for a company that made bike exhausts and one of my colleagues invented and patented a muffler design that met the regulations but I real world use worked as a straight through race pipe from the days before they put in silencer regulations for race bikes. They offer virtually no silencing when you're revving the bike at the sorts of levels too do with super sports bikes (race replicable effectively).

As to TT it is still one of the few races that's like the origins of bike racing I think. The successful TT racers often seem to be specialist TT bikers. Not many road races are quite like it, I think it's a sign it's out of its time and needs something changed to reduce deaths. But that's the opinion of someone who already fossils dislikes the whole IoM TT thing for many reasons. One of which is the bikers who go there or copy the riding style of the racers on the course and elsewhere. I used to meet up with a guy who lived in an area bikers meet up in and racing on country roads is scary at times. I've been missed by bikers by a margin of inches there before now. IMHO as long at you have bike racing on roads or race courses you'll have normal bikers copying the riding of racers I think. Glorifying speed in races is not a positive thing with machines as fast as bikes. Cars too I think.

[pwa]

Cycling as transportation has a chance of death 5 times higher than driving. Do all cyclists know this fact?

Is that per mile, per hour, or per journey?
What I notice is that cycling risks are less under your control than in some sports.

Per hour. Source here.

For a balanced view of that you would have to factor in the fact that the health benefits of cycling reduce one's chances of dying from heart disease, etc. Your car driver sits there safe from impacts but waiting sedately for their heart attack or a stroke, related to inactivity. The effects of cycling on your health are not limited to possible injury or death on the roads. And the safety of sitting comfortably in your car on the way to work is offset by the detrimental effects of relative inactivity. We could all cut out the risk of dying on the roads by staying at home and sitting in our armchairs all day, but on average we would shorten our lives by doing that.

Statistically motorcycling is just about the most dangerous way of being on the roads, but I suspect the figures mask the fact that motorcyclists are not one uniform group, and some are much more at risk than others.

[Jdsk]

I heard that IoM hospital has learnt how to treat RTA bikers and supposedly a centre of excellence in it.

Where was that from, please?

The major trauma centre for the IoM is Aintree Hospital in Liverpool in England. Initial assessment and stabilisation is performed at Noble's. There's a dedicated fixed wing aircraft with medical support and there's a new arrangement with a helicopter from Cumbria.

For the TTs they beef up the healthcare, but I don't think that they add for example a neurosurgery unit on the island.

Jonathan

[Jdsk]

Is that per mile, per hour, or per journey?
What I notice is that cycling risks are less under your control than in some sports.

Per hour. Source here.

For a balanced view of that you would have to factor in the fact that the health benefits of cycling reduce one's chances of dying from heart disease, etc. Your car driver sits there safe from impacts but waiting sedately for their heart attack or a stroke, related to inactivity. The effects of cycling on your health are not limited to possible injury or death on the roads. And the safety of sitting comfortably in your car on the way to work is offset by the detrimental effects of relative inactivity. We could all cut out the risk of dying on the roads by staying at home and sitting in our armchairs all day, but on average we would shorten our lives by doing that.

Yes. That article and analysis don't even mention the benefits of cycling to physical and mental health. They should.

Jonathan

[reohn2]

Thread drift alert:-

TM
I agree about the loud exhausts,there's an erroneous saying by an element within motorcycling that "loud pipes save lives" when in reality all "loud pipes" do is annoy and alienate their proponents which in turn spills over to other more benign law abiding motorcyclists,a bit like "all cyclists are RLJers" beliefs of some.
There's also,from my observation as a returning motorcyclist,a sub culture within the motorcycling fraternity who think traffic is just in their way so MGIF,have no regard for speed limits and tend to take unreasonable chances with their own and others' lives.
They are in a minority but very often are quite vocal about their addiction and many are of the "loud pipes save lives" element,make of that what you will.
My take on it is what none members of their sub culture term as annoying and anti social,translates to them as music,a bit like a car passing you on the street playing thrash rock at high volume with the windows open,the only people enjoying it are the occupants,paradoxically the offending motorcyclists can't hear his/her "music" as s/he's wearing earplugs and a full face helmet

[reohn2]

More thread drift:-

For a balanced view of that you would have to factor in the fact that the health benefits of cycling reduce one's chances of dying from heart disease, etc.Your car driver sits there safe from impacts but waiting sedately for their heart attack or a stroke, related to inactivity. The effects of cycling on your health are not limited to possible injury or death on the roads. And the safety of sitting comfortably in your car on the way to work is offset by the detrimental effects of relative inactivity. We could all cut out the risk of dying on the roads by staying at home and sitting in our armchairs all day, but on average we would shorten our lives by doing that..

Whilst you're generally correct about cycling your remark about car drivers is just supposition,many motorists may well be cyclists,exercise regularly and lead a healthy lifestyle

Statistically motorcycling is just about the most dangerous way of being on the roads, but I suspect the figures mask the fact that motorcyclists are not one uniform group, and some are much more at risk than others

Statistically correct but as you say motorcyclists aren't a uniform group,though motorcycling does tend to attract an element of risk takers some of which are downright stupidly dangerous to themselves and others.
Generally it's that element who come to grief and as I'm painfully aware in the case of my granddaughter,sometimes take other innocents with them.

[audaxjk]

Apologies, I can’t work out how to copy quotes from posts in the beige boxes, but would like to comment on TangledMetal’s comment on the IOM hospital & Jdsk’s response.

When dealing with trauma, the most complex and urgent is immediately catastrophic life threatening injuries usually from major haemorrhage (in the chest, abdomen, pelvis) and brain. This is very different to other stuff say multiple fractures which although serious, are not as time & specialist critical to manage. England established a new trauma network in ~2010-2012 with designated Major Trauma Units around the country to treat the most immediate/complex life threatening trauma. As an example, they have 24/7 Trauma consultant presence, specific pathways for managing massive bleeding (with plentiful stocks of blood & blood clotting products), rapid access to diagnostics, trauma surgeons and operating theatres, on site neurosurgery, cardio-thoracics (for head/chest/heart injuries). This whole package won’t be available at Noble (although I’m sure that they will have protocols in place for motorcycle polytrauma) and it is no surprise that complex/specialist trauma is flown to Liverpool (as was the case of the sidecar rider), assuming that it can be stabilised on the Island prior to transfer.

As you can imagine, it is a very resource heavy service and the decision to centralise it to a limited number of hospitals was a sensible one.

The most important medical teams on the Island for severe crashes are probably the Trauma/basics teams who respond at the scene, where there are life threatening injuries that are reversible/recoverable, it is their skills & teamworking that are probably going to have the most impact on outcome. In the past the TT organisation would pay jobbing doctors to support the event (my friend used to combine it with a holiday for his family), but now I suspect or would assume that the setup is more professional with specific out of hospital trained trauma teams (not just drs but paramedics etc).

I do get the arguments both for/against the TT re: risks, I am amazed that it is allowed to happen, but I have to say it is mind blowing to watch what these guys do.

[axel_knutt]

There were quite a few bikers where I used to work who used to go over to the IoM for TT week. I went to Snetterton with my boss once when he was racing his Suzuki 250, it was quite nice getting to watch from the pits, being 'one of the team'. Another guy was made to give up motorbikes by his wife after their eldest son broke his back in a bike crash, after the crash he used to ride a huge motor trike with his wheelchair on the back, looking like something out of Mad Max.