Belonging to a Union

[simonineaston]

I spent many hours churning through the turgid prose of these novels ("The Fountainhead" and "Atlas Shrugged").

I tried but gave up the unequal struggle... Fortunately, these days there are several ways of gaining an understanding of Rand's so-called philosophy, other than reading her dull, dull books! For example, she crops up repeatedly in archive footage of interviews, in at least one of Adam Curtis's documentaries.
As far as I can see, she is simply a mirror that reflected early Western libertarianism and to suggest that she developed a way of thinking is to whoppingly over-egg the pudding...

[reohn2]

Worth a read about the rail strike:- https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/firstg ... rs-payout/

[pete75]

[

I always found her name for the claimed "philosophy" she droned on and and on about, "Objectivism", a good chuckle. It would be hard to find a way of thinking about society, politics and culture that is more "subjective" - that is, without empathy or sympathy to the point of being solipsism. She is oblivious to a vast swathe of human thinking and feeling. Perhaps she should have called her peculiar thoughts "Obliviousism"?

Cugel, currently reading Madeline Miller's "Circe".

More like Justificationism. What's surprising is that the aggressively Christian US right is so influenced by the writings of an out and out atheist.

[al_yrpal]

Never heard of Ayn Rand..Bill Bryson and Lee Child yes.

Al

[PedallingSquares]

Quite why the average Britain has migrated away from seeing trade union membership as beneficial, towards thinking of it as somehow rather grubby is beyond me. Maybe this is Thatcher's most dangerous legacy.

Dont think that is correct.
But many people suffered all sorts of inconveniences and financial losses as a result of unreasonable militant unions and still see them as a negative force in our society. Just like the train strike. New enemys are multiplying right now....
Al

These many people have obviously forgotten that just about all modern workplace benefits are in place because of Unions.
I saw a clip of a young lady recently and whilst I can't remember her entire dialogue the basic premise was "you don't get any benefits from being a good boy or girl and asking your employer nicely,you get them from playing hardball"
That hardball was played in the past and every one of us today reaps the benefits but many take it for granted.
Militancy was needed at the time,perhaps it is now too.

[Nearholmer]

It’s simple really: unless or until the interests of employees and employers are always in perfect alignment, and I don’t expect that to happen any time soon, or even any time at all, then employees will need to act collectively to protect their interests.

Yes, sometimes TUs representing (usually temporarily) powerful groups of workers go beyond protecting interests to exploiting opportunity, although TBH I can’t readily think of a recent case where that has genuinely happened to extreme, but most of their work is “well below the radar”, preventing bullying and exploitation.

Yes, at any time that a TU and the workers it represents poke their heads above the parapet, the right wing press brings out all the time-worn weaponry with which to mortar them, unless the strikers are nurses, in which case slightly different rules apply.

And yes, the turmoil of the 1970s and the emasculation of TUs in the 1980s is still felt in terms of both antipathy toward unions by some and sheer ignorance of their potential benefits among youngsters who don’t recall how things were in the past.

There are reasons why people working in some sectors, retail and distribution for instance, are subject to far poorer conditions of employment than in others: one is around skills and the cost of training; another is that in the sectors with the worst conditions, collective organisation is weak to absent.

[tatanab]

Both the above points - unions were a force for good - unions were destructive ---- were true at different points in time. I started work in 1971 so saw the worst of unions in the 70s and into the 80s. Obviously I remember the bin men strikes, the regular teachers strikes, but the ones that affected my working life are more relevant. Examples from those days, -
1. I saw a fellow cyclist tugging a cart across a production hall. He said it could take him less than 5 minutes, but he had 15 and dared not be early.
2. I saw a production worker deliberately up his pace so that he could hack the ankles of the "suit" in front.
3. Drawing office unions regularly went on strike over the introduction of "new technology" (basic CAD). The company is training you with transferable skills and you've gone on strike!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
4. Unions occupied a big site for about 3 months. Nobody went to work until towards the end they let wages clerks etc in to sort out the payments. Even these people were being spat at. Having negotiated the reason for the strike, the unions then had to demand special payments to catch up with the lost production.
5. Twice during that occupation I asked people on picket lines just why they were on strike. The average person could come up with nothing more coherent that "the company treats us badly" (I changed the words for polite ones).
6. My mother worked for a family run company that had a few small sites around the country. At her place a union went on strike, then the next, and the next. The company said they simply could not afford this and so closed the site down completely.

The good side - I certainly know individuals who have had support when being retired early on medical grounds.

For me - there never was a union that represented electronic design engineers. You know, the individuals who getsa specification from a customer and sits down with a blank piece of paper and dreams up the multi million pound product for all those strikers to make.

[Nearholmer]

Drawing office unions regularly went on strike over the introduction of "new technology" (basic CAD). The company is training you with transferable skills and you've gone on strike!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had personal experience of representing DO staff during this process, and it wasn’t quite as simple as you seem to suggest, it being one of the “social work” episodes of being a rep.

Some of the guys just simply couldn’t make the transfer, not for want of trying or will, but they just couldn’t do it. There were guys who did jobs that disappeared, weren’t needed with CAD, who frankly weren’t up to more, and some of the older guys found the technology beyond alien.

Everyone got sorted in the end, no ‘industrial action’, some redeployment, some early retirements on decent terms, but it was a massively stressful time for about 30% of the guys, a wonderful world of opportunity for about 30%, and ‘sort of OK’ for the rest, and the ones who were challenged needed support, someone to speak on their behalf and secure acceptable outcomes.

Oh, and the initial CAD kit and software was glitchy, temperamental, anti-intuitive, not much better than beta-test, so managers got as frustrated as operatives, which didn’t help!

[tatanab]

Nearholmer - I agree that my wording was over simplistic and the whole issue was rather more complicated. I remember that the changes started in the late 70s, but even by the mid 80s the majority of the DO was still using drawing boards.

In work you have to change with the times. In my case that big change was the early 90s when electronic design was moving more and more into programmable devices instead of more discrete components, and the whole thing was emulated on a screen instead of prototyping in hardware. We had a generation of young kids who could programme and link these black boxes but had no idea of the internal workings, versus the dinosaurs like me (aged 40) who knew how things worked but were left cold by modern methods. A direct parallel to the DO/CAD events you have described.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
A piece of BBC news, but you won't find it on TV bbc will you!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/61840077

"The RMT union says the figures used by the government are too high because they include train drivers who are almost all represented by a different union and not people like cleaners who are not categorised in the ONS figures as rail workers.
The RMT says 10,000 of its members are cleaners.
It says that if you take the £44,000 figure, exclude the drivers and include cleaning staff you get a median figure of £33,000, which better reflects the pay of the people going on strike.
A median figure of £31,000 has also been cited by RMT general secretary Mick Lynch.
We asked the union for its exact workings and which is the correct figure, but have not received a response."

So we will exclude train drivers but we will include cleaners.
I'm okay with that.

But the train drivers are due to strike later on anyway even though they Belong to another union.

"It has also produced a median figure excluding train drivers - who are not involved in the RMT strike - of £36,800.
Mr Shapps is right that the figure is above the median pay for all employees in the UK, which was £25,971 last year."

So we get to the nitty-gritty of everything.

"For 2021, the median salary for train and tram drivers was £59,189 and for nurses it was £31,093.
His figure for care workers is a bit high. The median for care workers and home carers was £16,502 and for senior care workers it was £20,105.
The trouble with using the figure for train drivers in a debate about the RMT strikes is that the drivers are represented by their own union, Aslef - which is not taking part in the national strike.
Aslef says it represents 96% of train drivers - most of the remaining 4% are not union members at all.
Aslef drivers are set to strike on Greater Anglia services on 23 June. It is also balloting for action on several other lines."

[thirdcrank]

I see some barristers are taking industrial action.

Barristers walk out of courts in strike over pay

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61946038

[rjb]

Postie tells me they are also balloting on industrial action over pay and terms and conditions. General strike looming.

[Tangled Metal]

Do you belong to a union or do they work for you? It's just belong implies ownership which might be the case if you're paying dues without getting benefit but are unable to leave without consequences (are there still any closed shops around these days? ).

I'd have thought unions belong to you not you to unions. Just curious about the thread title that's all.

[Jdsk]

Do you belong to a union or do they work for you? It's just belong implies ownership which might be the case if you're paying dues without getting benefit but are unable to leave without consequences (are there still any closed shops around these days? ).

I'd have thought unions belong to you not you to unions. Just curious about the thread title that's all.

I belong to a union of people with some common interests. There isn't a "they".

Jonathan

[Tangled Metal]

Wasn't there a drivers strike a few years ago where they were claiming the strike was on safety grounds because they were removing guards on certain routes. Only for an increased pay offer with the removal of guards on those routes to break the strike action? If so then that's a good indictment of the priorities of society as a whole from the fat cats of business and the union barons to the workers on a median pay of 8k less than the striking RMT members median pay (RMT admitted figures).

LOL! I think I should join a union too. Although not being a semi or fully public sector worker it'll probably just get me the sack. Are unions really only good for larger organisations where union action might reach the press and the resulting employer actions being more public? Do unions do much for the smaller private sector organisations?