Was I in the wrong?

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
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Chris56
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Was I in the wrong?

Post by Chris56 »

Had an incident this morning. Road layout is a bit confusing but will explain best I can.

Heading along Canal Street, Nottingham where there is a 2-laned designsated cycle path running between the road an pavement (not shared).

The main road was to my left.

Up ahead was a junction with a set of traffic lights that were on green. I was proceeding straight ahead and there was a bus parallel with me that was wanting to turn right. Their right turn would have crossed my path.

We went through the green lights at about the same time and, as the bus was turning right the driver leant out of the window saying "you should have given way there you stupid boy" (given that I am 40 years old, degree-educated and am Head of a Science Faculty this did trigger me a little and he received some unpleasant 4-letter words from me!).

In the absense of any give-way signs, am I right in thinking that I still had right of way or should I have given way?
Last edited by Chris56 on 21 Jun 2022, 1:49pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jdsk
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Jdsk »

Could you add a StreetView, please?

Thanks

Jonathan
Chris56
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Chris56 »

Jdsk wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 1:48pm Could you add a StreetView, please?

Thanks

Jonathan
Hi Jonathan - annoyingly its a new layout and streetview hasn't been updated. It was heading eastbound along Canal street at the junction with Carrington street
PH
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by PH »

It's hard to be sure without seeing the layout, generally if they were turning and you were going straight and there were no markings or signage to indicate otherwise, then they should have given way to you.
Chris56
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Chris56 »

Junction.png
Nothing on streetview but here is a diagram. Blue path = path of bus, red line = my path
Green boxes = location of traffic lights that were on green

For me, if I had been travelling in the opposite direction it would have been clear-cut he having to give way to me but because we were in the same direction its a bit unclear. Cycle path was for travelling in both directions
thirdcrank
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by thirdcrank »

I'm not clear what the lines in your diagram represent, but if the work is now finished and the priorities are unclear, then there's a problem that needs clarification. A bus driver's view of traffic law etc is hardly definitive but clarity now would be preferable to a visit to the High Court years down the line to settle a mega compo claim.

If you are at this location regularly and want a comment from forum members, take a pic or two of your own and post them.
axel_knutt
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by axel_knutt »

The way you've drawn your diagram implies that the cycle path ends at the junction and then resumes at the other side. If the signs/markings don't make it clear who has priority, then the fault lies with the traffic engineer who designed the junction and any party who assumes they have priority when it's not explicitly clear.

The problem with cycle paths in general is that they needlessly create conflict over priority, and there's not much point in having had priority if you end up in a wheelchair because someone else didn't respect it.
Cycle path diagram #5.JPG
Absurd Lanes.jpg
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Mick F
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Mick F »

Generally, any vehicle turning from a major road into a minor road, MUST give way to any traffic going straight on irrespective of direction.

Traffic being pedestrians, cyclists, horses.
Mick F. Cornwall
Tiggertoo
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Tiggertoo »

In the absense of any give-way signs, am I right in thinking that I still had right of way or should I have given way?
Absolutely! It's called defensive riding and you should have expected the bus to turn in front of you no matter who had the 'Right' of way.
Chris56
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Chris56 »

Thanks both.

@Thirdcrank - I will take photos of the area when I leave work. Because the cycle lane doesn't explicity carry on across the road at the crossing I can see why the bus driver may have assumed right of way, but also the presence of a green light and the absense of a give-way sign/line on the cycle path led me to believe I had right of way.

@axel_knutt - The images you have posted highlights the main problem with this "cycle superhighway" they created in Nottingham. There are several sideroads along its route. Although there are "give way" markings a worrying number of motorists just ignore them.

The council did make this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap-9X7_QXj8
Chris56
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Chris56 »

Tiggertoo wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 2:57pm
Absolutely! It's called defensive riding and you should have expected the bus to turn in front of you no matter who had the 'Right' of way.
I do agree with what you are saying there. Just because the right of way was on my side doesn't mean the Grim Reaper was. Not withstanding that was the Bus driver in the right to call me out on it?
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mjr
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by mjr »

Chris56 wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 3:04pm
Tiggertoo wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 2:57pm
Absolutely! It's called defensive riding and you should have expected the bus to turn in front of you no matter who had the 'Right' of way.
I do agree with what you are saying there. Just because the right of way was on my side doesn't mean the Grim Reaper was. Not withstanding that was the Bus driver in the right to call me out on it?
No. Bus driver is a bully who should get a warning for that rage as well as failing to give way. Needs to shape up or be fired.

Every other civilised nation seems able to cope with turning traffic giving way and with walking > cycling > motorists, so why not the UK?
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thirdcrank
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by thirdcrank »

One aspect of something like this as that it doesn't occur in isolation, and so eg the bus drivers using this route will have a chunter and probably agree among themselves who should be doing what. Not so very different from what's happening on here. The reality is that there's the potential for serious injury or death to a cyclist. I for one don't need a martyr to have a legal ruling on fault.
Nearholmer
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Nearholmer »

Worse than, but similar to, an ambiguous priority that I mentioned in another thread recently, also on a newly laid-out section of road and cycleway.

If Highway authorities are following national signage and road marking standards, then those standards are deficient.
Last edited by Nearholmer on 21 Jun 2022, 3:58pm, edited 1 time in total.
Chris56
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Chris56 »

I've just reported the issue to the council. Whilst I fully support investment in cycling infrastructure its really frustrating when its so badly planned
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