Was I in the wrong?

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mjr
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by mjr »

thirdcrank wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 3:15pm I presume this stuck in my mind because it seemed so odd (and the fact that I can remember our Co-op number from the 1940s but not what I had for breakfast today, etc.)

The setting for this was that it was only in the late 1950s that there was any significant move to modernise the road network and roundabouts were part of that. Initially, there was no settled priority at roundabouts. Perhaps there's somebody with a Highway Code of that era.
Your memory seems correct:

The Highway Code - edition from 1959 – https://normandyhistorians.co.uk/hwc/1959hwc/p7.html

The Highway Code - edition from 1968 – https://normandyhistorians.co.uk/hwc/1968hwc/p9.html
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thirdcrank
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by thirdcrank »

mjr wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 10:06pm
thirdcrank wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 3:15pm I presume this stuck in my mind because it seemed so odd (and the fact that I can remember our Co-op number from the 1940s but not what I had for breakfast today, etc.)

The setting for this was that it was only in the late 1950s that there was any significant move to modernise the road network and roundabouts were part of that. Initially, there was no settled priority at roundabouts. Perhaps there's somebody with a Highway Code of that era.
Your memory seems correct:

The Highway Code - edition from 1959 – https://normandyhistorians.co.uk/hwc/1959hwc/p7.html

The Highway Code - edition from 1968 – https://normandyhistorians.co.uk/hwc/1968hwc/p9.html
Thanks for those links.

Re There once being no general priority at roundabouts, while it may seem incredible now, I thought it was general knowledge.

I think it's also generally accepted that there's no "priority from the right" rule in the UK of the type applying in some other countries. When it was suggested that there was above it was rightly dismissed. I regret making my "roundabouts" post now because it just took the thread even further off track. I wish I could remember where and when I read about the judgment dealing with UK roundabouts. I appreciate it sounds like some sort of urban myth but I'm sure I read it. It must have been in the couple of years after I passed my test when I was a student. It won't have been in a formal law report but more likely in some newspaper or mag in the library reading room.

The point in 2022 must be that priorities will be decided by current rules.
===================================================================
It has occurred tome that there must be contemporaneous comment in Hansard and I've found several reports from the 1950s and 1960s and these two seem representative:

In 1956 a transport ministry spokesman was firmly against a rule establishing general priorities at roundabouts.

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hans ... oundabouts

"On this day" - 29 July in 1966, a ministry spokesman was pressed to announce the outcome of the experiments and consultation being undertaken about this and stonewalled

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1 ... ritySigns)

====================================================================
Although I've found several entries in Hansard - including some duplication - about the protracted experiments into priority at roundabouts, I've been unable to find anything about the date or particulars of the introduction of the modern rule of the normal priority being with traffic already on the roundabout.
Slowroad
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Slowroad »

I've cycled this junction recently and the lights for cyclists just didn't seem to be working so I 'went pedestrian'. I've just asked on a local Facebook group if anyone knows what's happening. Will post if I hear anything useful.
“My two favourite things in life are libraries and bicycles. They both move people forward without wasting anything. The perfect day: riding a bike to the library.”
― Peter Golkin
Slowroad
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Slowroad »

Already had a few people say they had similar experiences to you, so that junction, even if finished, isn't working - in that it is either not clear to cyclists, or not clear to drivers (or not clear to both!).
Did you hear back from the council?
“My two favourite things in life are libraries and bicycles. They both move people forward without wasting anything. The perfect day: riding a bike to the library.”
― Peter Golkin
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Cowsham
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Cowsham »

thirdcrank wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 10:28pm
mjr wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 10:06pm
thirdcrank wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 3:15pm I presume this stuck in my mind because it seemed so odd (and the fact that I can remember our Co-op number from the 1940s but not what I had for breakfast today, etc.)

The setting for this was that it was only in the late 1950s that there was any significant move to modernise the road network and roundabouts were part of that. Initially, there was no settled priority at roundabouts. Perhaps there's somebody with a Highway Code of that era.
Your memory seems correct:

The Highway Code - edition from 1959 – https://normandyhistorians.co.uk/hwc/1959hwc/p7.html

The Highway Code - edition from 1968 – https://normandyhistorians.co.uk/hwc/1968hwc/p9.html
Thanks for those links.

Re There once being no general priority at roundabouts, while it may seem incredible now, I thought it was general knowledge.

I think it's also generally accepted that there's no "priority from the right" rule in the UK of the type applying in some other countries. When it was suggested that there was above it was rightly dismissed. I regret making my "roundabouts" post now because it just took the thread even further off track. I wish I could remember where and when I read about the judgment dealing with UK roundabouts. I appreciate it sounds like some sort of urban myth but I'm sure I read it. It must have been in the couple of years after I passed my test when I was a student. It won't have been in a formal law report but more likely in some newspaper or mag in the library reading room.

The point in 2022 must be that priorities will be decided by current rules.
===================================================================
It has occurred tome that there must be contemporaneous comment in Hansard and I've found several reports from the 1950s and 1960s and these two seem representative:

In 1956 a transport ministry spokesman was firmly against a rule establishing general priorities at roundabouts.

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hans ... oundabouts

"On this day" - 29 July in 1966, a ministry spokesman was pressed to announce the outcome of the experiments and consultation being undertaken about this and stonewalled

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1 ... ritySigns)

====================================================================
Although I've found several entries in Hansard - including some duplication - about the protracted experiments into priority at roundabouts, I've been unable to find anything about the date or particulars of the introduction of the modern rule of the normal priority being with traffic already on the roundabout.
What about this to further confuse traffic
Tourists like me were standing in wonderment -- I took photos when I was there a few weeks ago -- going back soon and will have to negotiate it by motorcycle this time ( didn't even attempt it by cycle )
https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2021-0 ... sle-of-man
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Slowroad
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Slowroad »

It seems from Facebook discussions on 'Nottingham Cycling Chat' that the junction lights have very recently been sorted out so that buses and cycles are not in conflict. Haven't had a chance to try it for myself yet.
“My two favourite things in life are libraries and bicycles. They both move people forward without wasting anything. The perfect day: riding a bike to the library.”
― Peter Golkin
Pete Owens
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Pete Owens »

Is that every single junction in Nottingham where a cycle path crosses turning traffic - or is it just the one?
Cyclingtimmy
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Joined: 30 Jul 2019, 2:47pm

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Cyclingtimmy »

The "not in use" signs were finally removed last week - until then the only options were to conflict with some bus traffic, but it looks like the cycle green doesn't conflict with motor vehicles or pedestrians now.

It would be better to put a colour strip across the road which signifies a continuous cycle lane. Hopefully bus drivers will get used to the new signals!
ChrisP100
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Joined: 24 Sep 2020, 9:00am

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by ChrisP100 »

Cyclingtimmy wrote: 2 Aug 2022, 1:36pm Hopefully bus drivers will get used to the new signals!
You'd like to think so given their their vehicles weigh 12 tonnes :?
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

thirdcrank wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 10:28pm
mjr wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 10:06pm
thirdcrank wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 3:15pm I presume this stuck in my mind because it seemed so odd (and the fact that I can remember our Co-op number from the 1940s but not what I had for breakfast today, etc.)

The setting for this was that it was only in the late 1950s that there was any significant move to modernise the road network and roundabouts were part of that. Initially, there was no settled priority at roundabouts. Perhaps there's somebody with a Highway Code of that era.
Your memory seems correct:

The Highway Code - edition from 1959 – https://normandyhistorians.co.uk/hwc/1959hwc/p7.html

The Highway Code - edition from 1968 – https://normandyhistorians.co.uk/hwc/1968hwc/p9.html
Thanks for those links.

Re There once being no general priority at roundabouts, while it may seem incredible now, I thought it was general knowledge.

I think it's also generally accepted that there's no "priority from the right" rule in the UK of the type applying in some other countries. When it was suggested that there was above it was rightly dismissed. I regret making my "roundabouts" post now because it just took the thread even further off track. I wish I could remember where and when I read about the judgment dealing with UK roundabouts. I appreciate it sounds like some sort of urban myth but I'm sure I read it. It must have been in the couple of years after I passed my test when I was a student. It won't have been in a formal law report but more likely in some newspaper or mag in the library reading room.

The point in 2022 must be that priorities will be decided by current rules.
===================================================================
It has occurred tome that there must be contemporaneous comment in Hansard and I've found several reports from the 1950s and 1960s and these two seem representative:

In 1956 a transport ministry spokesman was firmly against a rule establishing general priorities at roundabouts.

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hans ... oundabouts

"On this day" - 29 July in 1966, a ministry spokesman was pressed to announce the outcome of the experiments and consultation being undertaken about this and stonewalled

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1 ... ritySigns)

====================================================================
Although I've found several entries in Hansard - including some duplication - about the protracted experiments into priority at roundabouts, I've been unable to find anything about the date or particulars of the introduction of the modern rule of the normal priority being with traffic already on the roundabout.
I note that the 1959 edition uses the phrase "right of way" in the sense of "priority". I couldn't find either phrase in an admittedly cursory glance at the 1968 edition.
Slowroad
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Joined: 28 Jun 2008, 9:58pm
Location: Nottingham, UK

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Slowroad »

Picture of the crossing today - I'll post the video I took if I can get it off my phone!
The cycle crossing time is short, only 4 or 5 seconds. It was clear that some people on bikes and scooters either hadn't noticed the lights or chose to ignore them.
IMG_20220803_162936587.jpg
“My two favourite things in life are libraries and bicycles. They both move people forward without wasting anything. The perfect day: riding a bike to the library.”
― Peter Golkin
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Jdsk »

Thanks for the photo.

Does the bus come up on the left and turn right at the traffic lights?

Jonathan
Slowroad
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Joined: 28 Jun 2008, 9:58pm
Location: Nottingham, UK

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Slowroad »

Thanks for the photo.

Does the bus come up on the left and turn right at the traffic lights?

Jonathan
Yes, that's right.
“My two favourite things in life are libraries and bicycles. They both move people forward without wasting anything. The perfect day: riding a bike to the library.”
― Peter Golkin
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Jdsk »

Thanks

Jonathan
Chris56
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Joined: 3 May 2020, 9:30pm

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Chris56 »

Yeah it has got better since the light were sorted. No more altercations with buses! Do agree that the timer is a bit short, and you do have to watch for pedestrians more as they tend to cross when they see the road lights go red.
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