Was I in the wrong?

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
ChrisP100
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Joined: 24 Sep 2020, 9:00am

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by ChrisP100 »

mattheus wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 12:16pm
Airsporter1st wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 10:36am
mattheus wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 9:49am
Yes, many have said this - but I still don't get it. Can you help?
I truly believe it to be self-evident. In any situation, simply proceeding because it's your right, heedless of any possible adverse outcome, is unlikely to increase one's longevity.
Please use simpler words. I'm still not getting it, sorry!
Imagine you are approaching a level crossing, and the barrier is up but you hear a train. Technically you have right of way because there is no flashing light and the barrier is up. The train has either missed a signal, or there is a serious safety system failure.

Now you could assert your right of way, but it would be sensible to yield to the oncoming train because it's going to really hurt if you don't.

Not sure I can put it any simpler.
Chris56
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Joined: 3 May 2020, 9:30pm

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Chris56 »

mattheus wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 9:04am
Chris56 wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 8:59am
mattheus wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 8:30am
Could you explain this please?
Avoiding a collision is a greater priority than asserting your right of way
Why?
Ermmm, because if you don't avoid the collison much worse things can happen (eg death) than simply giving up your priority until its safe to proceed?
Airsporter1st
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Joined: 8 Oct 2016, 3:14pm

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Airsporter1st »

mattheus wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 12:16pm
Airsporter1st wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 10:36am
mattheus wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 9:49am
Yes, many have said this - but I still don't get it. Can you help?
I truly believe it to be self-evident. In any situation, simply proceeding because it's your right, heedless of any possible adverse outcome, is unlikely to increase one's longevity.
Please use simpler words. I'm still not getting it, sorry!
Then I'm afraid you'll just have to remain in the dark.
ambodach
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by ambodach »

I once found myself in the driver’s situation in Union Street, Aberdeen. There was a bus lane on my left and a cyclist travelling same direction as myself but in the bus lane. I had my motorhome and had to turn left into a side street avoiding entering the bus lane which carried a penalty. I could see the cyclist in my mirrors just behind me but he did not know this and since the traffic lights were green I could just have turned left and probably killed him. Standoff until he decided to go past me but an awkward situation for both of us.
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tykeboy2003
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Location: Swadlincote, South Derbyshire

Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by tykeboy2003 »

Chris56 wrote: 21 Jun 2022, 2:19pm Junction.png

Nothing on streetview but here is a diagram. Blue path = path of bus, red line = my path
Green boxes = location of traffic lights that were on green

For me, if I had been travelling in the opposite direction it would have been clear-cut he having to give way to me but because we were in the same direction its a bit unclear. Cycle path was for travelling in both directions
The general rule in he UK is give way to the right. From the bus driver's point of view, you were coming from the right. He should have given way to you.
Jdsk
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Jdsk »

tykeboy2003 wrote: 21 Jul 2022, 7:28amThe general rule in he UK is give way to the right. From the bus driver's point of view, you were coming from the right. He should have given way to you.
I don't think that there is a general rule to give way to the right. (There is a specific rule at roundabouts.)

Discussing this stuff is very valuable: how do you derive that from the Highway Code, please?

Thanks

Jonathan
mattheus
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by mattheus »

Jdsk wrote: 21 Jul 2022, 10:04am
tykeboy2003 wrote: 21 Jul 2022, 7:28amThe general rule in he UK is give way to the right. From the bus driver's point of view, you were coming from the right. He should have given way to you.
I don't think that there is a general rule to give way to the right. (There is a specific rule at roundabouts.)

Discussing this stuff is very valuable: how do you derive that from the Highway Code, please?
I think he means general precedence, unwritten etiquette, habits etc ... but I shouldn't put words in another's mouth.

JD do you know any examples where you give way to the left? There's probably one somewhere, but hardly common, I think ...
Jdsk
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Jdsk »

mattheus wrote: 21 Jul 2022, 10:32amJD do you know any examples where you give way to the left? There's probably one somewhere, but hardly common, I think ...
When told to do so by signs, lines or traffic lights. The second part of turning right onto dual carriageways. Rule H3. Rule 183.

But I don't think that "give way to the left" and "give way to the right" are particularly useful principles in our system.

Jonathan
mattheus
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by mattheus »

Jdsk wrote: 21 Jul 2022, 10:44am
mattheus wrote: 21 Jul 2022, 10:32amJD do you know any examples where you give way to the left? There's probably one somewhere, but hardly common, I think ...
When told to do so by signs, lines or traffic lights. The second part of turning right onto dual carriageways. Rule H3. Rule 183.

But I don't think that "give way to the left" and "give way to the right" are particularly useful principles in our system.

Jonathan
Yep, good point, I'll give you the bolded example [although it always follows a Give Way to the RIGHT, so doesn't affect the numbers much!]

Do you have examples of the others? I'd say they are rare. Obeying a red light doesn't really count, does it?
Jdsk
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Jdsk »

mattheus wrote: 21 Jul 2022, 10:58am
Jdsk wrote: 21 Jul 2022, 10:44am
mattheus wrote: 21 Jul 2022, 10:32amJD do you know any examples where you give way to the left? There's probably one somewhere, but hardly common, I think ...
When told to do so by signs, lines or traffic lights. The second part of turning right onto dual carriageways. Rule H3. Rule 183.

But I don't think that "give way to the left" and "give way to the right" are particularly useful principles in our system.

Jonathan
Yep, good point, I'll give you the bolded example [although it always follows a Give Way to the RIGHT, so doesn't affect the numbers much!]

Do you have examples of the others? I'd say they are rare. Obeying a red light doesn't really count, does it?
They all count if you want to bundle this into a general principle, which I don't. Because the Highway Code doesn't. That makes counting examples irrelevant, what matters is the individual Rules.

And I do think that you should "give way to the left" "When told to do so by signs, lines or traffic lights.". That includes "minor" into "major" roads.

Jonathan
mattheus
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by mattheus »

Jdsk wrote: 21 Jul 2022, 11:04am
And I do think that you should "give way to the left" "When told to do so by signs, lines or traffic lights.". That includes "minor" into "major" roads.

Jonathan
Turning out of a minor road you also give way to the right (as well as the left)! Remember, no-one has priority.
mattheus
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by mattheus »

The Highway Code itself states general principles. They can be very useful, especially my bold bit:


https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/general ... iders.html

1. Overview
This section should be read by all drivers, motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders. The rules in The Highway Code do not give you the right of way in any circumstance, but they advise you when you should give way to others. Always give way if it can help to avoid an incident.
Jdsk
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Jdsk »

mattheus wrote: 21 Jul 2022, 11:17am
Jdsk wrote: 21 Jul 2022, 11:04am And I do think that you should "give way to the left" "When told to do so by signs, lines or traffic lights.". That includes "minor" into "major" roads.
Turning out of a minor road you also give way to the right (as well as the left)! Remember, no-one has priority.
Yes, at "minor" into "major" you give way to the left and give way to the right. The former is another example of "give way to the left".

The point is that it's much better to see what the Highway Code says than to use a "general rule".

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by Jdsk »

mattheus wrote: 21 Jul 2022, 11:19am The Highway Code itself states general principles. They can be very useful, especially my bold bit:
https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/general ... iders.html

1. Overview
This section should be read by all drivers, motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders. The rules in The Highway Code do not give you the right of way in any circumstance, but they advise you when you should give way to others. Always give way if it can help to avoid an incident.
Yes.

And it doesn't state a general rule of "give way to the right". That's what was asserted upthread.

Jonathan
mattheus
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Re: Was I in the wrong?

Post by mattheus »

Jdsk wrote: 21 Jul 2022, 11:22am
mattheus wrote: 21 Jul 2022, 11:19am The Highway Code itself states general principles. They can be very useful, especially my bold bit:
https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/general ... iders.html

1. Overview
This section should be read by all drivers, motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders. The rules in The Highway Code do not give you the right of way in any circumstance, but they advise you when you should give way to others. Always give way if it can help to avoid an incident.
Yes.

And it doesn't state a general rule of "give way to the right". That's what was asserted upthread.

Jonathan
But tykeboy didn't assert that it was in the Highway Code.
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