Muc-off cleaner as an ultrasonic bath surfactant?

[Cugel]

Two chains cleaned today, with interesting results from the ultrasonic cleaner.

The first was the Shimano HGX-11 chain that came on the new bike, ridden just short of 600K in good weather on Welsh backroads, with the manufacturer's grease the only lubrication. The externals of the chain were dirty as the manufacturer's lube is a sticky grease. This was cleaned in Morgan Blue degreaser - three shakes with three sloshes of the neat degreaser, with the first taking out most of the muck and the next two getting a bit more then just a grey/black colour without any obvious grit.

This chain was put in the ultrasonic cleaner with water at 50 degrees C and some Muc-Off bike washer stuff added as a surfactant. 10 minutes saw no more dirt come out at all!

The chain was rinsed in clean water then hung up and dried before having TF2 trickle-squirted on it until it dripped off the chain-ends. The TF2 came off clean - no sign of any grit or even discolouration.

I assume the chain innards were still clean because packed with the manufacturer's grease. The cleaning removed the grease but the grit and dirt seems to have come mostly from the external surfaces of the chain. A Park chain measuring tool shows no significant "stretch".

********
The second chain was a Wipperman Connex that's done about 2000k, with a few basic shake-in-degreaser then relube cleans along the way. The lube used was "Bike Magic Purple Extreme" bought a number of years ago after reading rave reviews. It does seem to lubricate well but despite its claim to be a dry lube, it is in fact a bit sticky. This is presumably why the advertising blurb claims, "Good for 400 miles between applications". It does work quite well, though, going by the mileages I got out of chains treated with it.

This Connex chain (a 10-speed) showed 0.25% wear on the Park tool, which is what I expect for that sort of mileage. It'll be good for maybe another 500K or so.

This chain too was degreased with three swooshes of Morgan Blue, yielding the same initial grit and black muck, followed by a bit more grit then just a grey discoloration of the degreaser. Just to try it, I also gave it a final swoosh in some isopropyl alcohol, which yielded no obvious grit or muck but did turn the alcohol a light grey hue.

This chain was also put in the ultrasonic cleaner with Muc-Off in it, at 50 degrees C for 10 minutes. Unlike the previous chain, this one gave of some ultrafine grit and discoloured the water to quite a murky grey.

I assume that this chain did have additional grit & dust not got out with the Morgan Blue or even the alcohol, muck perhaps kept in the chain innards by a last remnant of the sticky Purple Extreme lube previously used.

This chain was also rinsed and dried then hung up for an application of TF2, the excess drips showing no discolouration.

**********

So, what conclusions would you draw? It seems to me that the stuff used to lubricate the chain may be the critical factor in whether a chain hangs on to some of the innards-muck. Perhaps the conditions in which the chain has been most used also affect what dirt gets in there?

The first chain has only been used in good weather and on Welsh backroads seeing little traffic. There's not likely to be that much gritty dirt on them perhaps? It gets rained off quite frequently! The second chain had been used in wet conditions and, initially, on the roads of NW England, which see far more traffic than out in West Wales and so perhaps are much dirtier in the way of grit that gets into chains then sticks there?

Guesses, really.

But it does seem that US cleaning might be worth it in some cases .... but not all. I'll clean some more chains with various histories to see if the US cleaner gets out more muck or not. It'll be a week or three though.

Cugel

[toontra]

Could also be the manufacturer's grease does a good job at protecting the deep inners of the chain, preventing ingress of muck. I always keep the grease for as long as possible and the first deep clean is at least 1000 miles in.

I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my 21051182G using hovercraft full of eels.

[Chris Jeggo]

.....
The first chain has only been used in good weather and on Welsh backroads seeing little traffic. There's not likely to be that much gritty dirt on them perhaps? It gets rained off quite frequently! The second chain had been used in wet conditions and, initially, on the roads of NW England, which see far more traffic than out in West Wales and so perhaps are much dirtier in the way of grit that gets into chains then sticks there?

It has always seemed to me that water is very good at washing dirt into chains and very bad at washing it out. I like to use a mud-flap.

[Jdsk]

I thought I'd just show the cowl on the chain-drive bike too (I need to remake it, as it's getting a bit tatty). Here are the three containers, showing the first, second and third coffee filters, with successive levels of cleanliness.

Thanks. Very interesting. Great to see the effect.

How about taking a chain that's been through that and then exposing it to ultrasonic cleaning to see if it gets out any more?

Jonathan

[Stroudy]

@Jonathan, I may have to buy an ultrasonic cleaner (just for experimental purposes, your honour) and do that . I've always felt that any chain cleaning method that hopes to be effective shouldn't yield any more dirt when subjected to another method immediately afterwards. For example, wiping a chain and oiling it and wiping again and again until the rag no longer shows any dirt is popular, and is better than not wiping at all, but this 3-bath vigorous shake-up method brings out a lot of grit after that process, so let's see what the ultrasonic cleaner can do. Goes off to order one...

[Jdsk]

: - )

Jonathan

[Cugel]

Just a couple of photos showing the muck that the ultrasonic cleaner got out of the second chain I "tested", even though that chain had three baths in clean degreaser as well as a final bath in isopropyl alcohol, all with a lot of swilling & swooshing about.

The bathe & shake process did remove the majority of the dirt but it was surprising to see how much was left in the chain, muck that was obviously very reluctant to come out despite vigorous action with the degreaser. I couldn't get anything other than a slight discoloration (darkening) in the third bath degreaser and the 4th bath in the alcohol.

The stuff in the bottom of the US cleaner was what was left after it all settled out (after about a couple of hours) and after I poured off the liquid from the tank, which inevitably took a little bit of the dirt with it. Even after I swilled out the tank, apparently leaving nothing, a paper towel (that pictured) wiped a dirty smear off the tank sides and bottom.

US cleaning seems worth it then.

But very surprising that the first chain so-cleaned saw nothing left for the US cleaner to get out. Is manufacturer's lube so good it won't let dirt in!?

Cugel

[Maillot Rouge]

Chains are cheap consumables.Squirt with Fenwicks or whatever your favourite degreaser is,relube and ride.
Buy a new one when it’s life has ended.
I used to waste time meticulously cleaning mountain bike drive trains but worked out they last no longer.My road chain has lasted 5x longer than any mountain bike chain so for the sake of €40 or €50 it gets a quick clean every 1000kms or so.
I wish I had time enough to ride let alone prolonging a relatively simple task such as cleaning a chain!

[Bsteel]

US cleaning seems worth it then.
But very surprising that the first chain so-cleaned saw nothing left for the US cleaner to get out. Is manufacturer's lube so good it won't let dirt in!?

Maybe another test with a new chain and two quick links so you can strip the manufacturer's grease from half the chain and leave the other half with grease.

[Cugel]

Chains are cheap consumables.Squirt with Fenwicks or whatever your favourite degreaser is,relube and ride.
Buy a new one when it’s life has ended.
I used to waste time meticulously cleaning mountain bike drive trains but worked out they last no longer.My road chain has lasted 5x longer than any mountain bike chain so for the sake of €40 or €50 it gets a quick clean every 1000kms or so.
I wish I had time enough to ride let alone prolonging a relatively simple task such as cleaning a chain!

If three chains are kept and rotated for a particular bike, the time taken to take off a chain and clean it thoroughly is neither here nor there. Taking off a dirty chain and putting on a clean already-prepared chain takes about 2 minutes, especially if a quick link is used. The Wippermann Connex quick link doesn't even need a tool. I reckon about 20 minutes to degrease, US-clean then relube a dirty chain. Mind, I am retired with plenty of time to furtle about with bike bits.

But you may be right that keeping a chain fully lubricated without cleaning it can still keep it working. My concern has always been the avoidance of ring and sprocket wear, as these days renewing such components costs a lot. I'm hoping to find a chain cleaning & relubing regime that'll preserve the rings and sprockets forever!

And chains, by the way, are no longer cheap either, especially those for the latest current systems (11 and 12-speed).

Cugel

[Cugel]

US cleaning seems worth it then.
But very surprising that the first chain so-cleaned saw nothing left for the US cleaner to get out. Is manufacturer's lube so good it won't let dirt in!?

Maybe another test with a new chain and two quick links so you can strip the manufacturer's grease from half the chain and leave the other half with grease.

"You've taken that too far" (The Chewin' the Fat Painters)

I will clean the latest new chain I've put on a bike after it's done 500k or so, to see if the same thing happens. (Degrease gets all the dirt with no further muck extracted by US-cleaning). That first chain was the first I US-cleaned, ever. Perhaps I got something wrong, such as insufficient surfactant in the water?

Cugel

[Chris Jeggo]

Here's the 'cowl' thingy on the belt-drive bike. I have them on my chain-drive bikes too, plus extra-long mudflaps.

...

I thought I'd just show the cowl on the chain-drive bike too (I need to remake it, as it's getting a bit tatty).
...

Thanks, Stroudy, for those photos. I've only just done a thorough trawl back through the many posts on this very active topic.
I seem to recall seeing pictures in cycling magazines of many decades ago, well before my time, of bikes equipped with mudguards shaped like that (thin steel plate, not extruded plastic). Ever since, mudguards have slowly but surely got smaller, cheaper to manufacture but much less effective.
I have often thought about doing something to cut rear-wheel spray on to the transmission (I already cut front-wheel spray by making and fitting effective mud-flaps). Your photos inspire me to actually take scissors to milk bottle and get to work with cable ties and sticky tape.

[carlislemike]

There’s an awful lot of information here. I must admit the technical, scientific analyses are a step above my understanding but shake, rattle and roll (chain back on) is my preference. One question, not asked above and therefore not answered:- what to do with the leftovers? Cleaners, surfactants, grease, oily grit, etc., surely are not really suitable for domestic drains? Gone are the days of arbitrarily dumping down an outside drain. Gone are the days of absorbing in rags, waddling or paper towels and chucking on an outside bonfire! Do I store the liquid in old cans and take it down to the local council dump and leave with the old paint cans? Just a thought in our age of thinking green.

[Mick F]

I used Gunk for many years, and that is water soluble, so when it was "spent", I would let it settle, and retrieve the clean stuff, then wash out the residue with a hosepipe outside on the drive.

These days, I use the No Nonsense degreaser from Screwfix diluted 50/50 with water. Far FAR cheaper than Gunk, and is also water soluble too.

I frequently use the Cyclone chain bath as you don't need to bother taking the chain off. I use the 50/50 Screwfix stuff in it too.

[Jdsk]

One question, not asked above and therefore not answered:- what to do with the leftovers? Cleaners, surfactants, grease, oily grit, etc., surely are not really suitable for domestic drains? Gone are the days of arbitrarily dumping down an outside drain. Gone are the days of absorbing in rags, waddling or paper towels and chucking on an outside bonfire! Do I store the liquid in old cans and take it down to the local council dump and leave with the old paint cans? Just a thought in our age of thinking green.

That's a very good question.

There was a discussion of the environmental impact of added plastic in chain lube. IIRC that received a dismissive response because bigger problems exist. I disagree. Some big behavioural changes are needed, and immediate impact isn't the only objective.

Taking nasty liquids to a centre that will deal with them sounds like a smart move.

And I'll have a look at which cleaning method might be least harmful from the environmental point of view.

Jonathan