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Re: Muc-off cleaner as an ultrasonic bath surfactant?
Posted: 24 Jun 2022, 10:21am
by carlislemike
Years ago, cleaning car parts with paraffin in a vibrating bath, the crud and messy liquid was always canned and taken to the Council waste sites. Ok bigger scale cleaning but similar environmental concerns
Re: Muc-off cleaner as an ultrasonic bath surfactant?
Posted: 24 Jun 2022, 10:23am
by Jdsk
Mick F wrote: ↑24 Jun 2022, 10:11am...
These days, I use the No Nonsense degreaser from Screwfix diluted 50/50 with water. Far FAR cheaper than Gunk, and is also water soluble too....
That's a mixture of surfactants. I'd expect it to be an effective degreaser at a much lower concentration. It would be an interesting and easy test.
Jonathan
Re: Muc-off cleaner as an ultrasonic bath surfactant?
Posted: 24 Jun 2022, 10:26am
by Jdsk
Bsteel wrote: ↑24 Jun 2022, 8:01amMaybe another test with a new chain and two quick links so you can strip the manufacturer's grease from half the chain and leave the other half with grease.
That's a very clever way of controlling for all sorts of variables in these tests. And I don't think that I've seen it suggested before.
It would be necessary to know which part was treated how, and you could do that by splitting at somewhere other than halfway and using the length for that identification.
Jonathan
Re: Muc-off cleaner as an ultrasonic bath surfactant?
Posted: 24 Jun 2022, 10:41am
by carlislemike
Jdsk wrote: ↑24 Jun 2022, 10:23am
Mick F wrote: ↑24 Jun 2022, 10:11am...
These days, I use the No Nonsense degreaser from Screwfix diluted 50/50 with water. Far FAR cheaper than Gunk, and is also water soluble too....
That's a mixture of surfactants. I'd expect it to be an effective degreaser at a much lower concentration. It would be an interesting and easy test.
Jonathan
Still leaves the oily stuff from the chain plus well oiled/greased grit!
Re: Muc-off cleaner as an ultrasonic bath surfactant?
Posted: 24 Jun 2022, 11:06am
by Cugel
Chris Jeggo wrote: ↑24 Jun 2022, 9:23am
Stroudy wrote: ↑23 Jun 2022, 11:35am
Here's the 'cowl' thingy on the belt-drive bike. I have them on my chain-drive bikes too, plus extra-long mudflaps.
...
Stroudy wrote: ↑23 Jun 2022, 12:05pm
I thought I'd just show the cowl on the chain-drive bike too (I need to remake it, as it's getting a bit tatty).
...
Thanks, Stroudy, for those photos. I've only just done a thorough trawl back through the many posts on this very active topic.
I seem to recall seeing pictures in cycling magazines of many decades ago, well before my time, of bikes equipped with mudguards shaped like that (thin steel plate, not extruded plastic). Ever since, mudguards have slowly but surely got smaller, cheaper to manufacture but much less effective.
I have often thought about doing something to cut rear-wheel spray on to the transmission (I already cut front-wheel spray by making and fitting effective mud-flaps). Your photos inspire me to actually take scissors to milk bottle and get to work with cable ties and sticky tape.
It's perhaps surprising that none of the out-there makers of expensive gubbins have pursued something like a chain guard, rendered as "aero" or otherwise appealing to roadies lush with cash and ambitions in the Strava-striving. There is a thing recently put on the market that seems to be an "aero" gubbins for the rear derailleur cage but looks like a very mini chainguard:
https://www.bikeradar.com/news/ceramicspeed-ospw-aero/
Although derailleur chain line changes would complicate it, in this day and age of superlight but strong & stiff materials, why not an old fashioned chain guard rendered as an aero thing? As I recall, older sit-up-and-beg bikes used to have large chainguards that were sealed enough to include a permanent oil bath, which kept the chains not only clean but very well lubricated ....
Cugel
Re: Muc-off cleaner as an ultrasonic bath surfactant?
Posted: 24 Jun 2022, 11:08am
by Bsteel
I wonder if it's significant compared to the materials washed from the road during a heavy rain ?
Which isn't intended as a justification to freely flush cleaners away.
Re: Muc-off cleaner as an ultrasonic bath surfactant?
Posted: 24 Jun 2022, 11:12am
by Cugel
Jdsk wrote: ↑24 Jun 2022, 10:23am
Mick F wrote: ↑24 Jun 2022, 10:11am...
These days, I use the No Nonsense degreaser from Screwfix diluted 50/50 with water. Far FAR cheaper than Gunk, and is also water soluble too....
That's a mixture of surfactants. I'd expect it to be an effective degreaser at a much lower concentration. It would be an interesting and easy test.
Jonathan
Ideally I'd like to do away with the degreaser. I suppose US-cleaning of a completely dirty chain, with no prior degreasing, would still work albeit leaving a lot more muck at the bottom of the US cleaner tank. Many surfactants seem unproblematic to environmental concerns .....?
There's still the problem of lubricating the chain. I wonder if there are plant-based oils about that are effective at chain lubrication without becoming an emulsified black gear-clogger?
Cugel
Re: Muc-off cleaner as an ultrasonic bath surfactant?
Posted: 24 Jun 2022, 10:06pm
by Stroudy
Regarding disposal, I don't need to dispose of any liquid, as I re-use it again and again. A very small quantity is lost in the chain and in the coffee filters, but I've literally been using the same litre of heating oil for years.
The ultrasonic cleaner arrived, and I completed the experiment Jonathan proposed earlier. The chain wasn't very dirty, as it had only done one ride since the last clean, so that may explain why the result is different from Cugel's. I shook it vigorously for a minute in each of the three heating oil baths, with the lid on. Each one used cleaner oil than the one before, and each container held filtered oil from previous cleaning operations. I dried the chain with an absorbent cloth, then put it into the ultrasonic cleaner, using some washing-up liquid and warm water. I set the timer to 3 minutes and switched on. I could see the water distorting around the chain, but no dirt was visible coming out. At the end of 3 minutes, the machine switched off and I took a photo. I removed the chain and dried it on an absorbent rag, then warmed it on the hob to drive out any water left inside. As you can see, the water is clean in the US cleaner, so I think one could use the triple-bath vigorous shake-up method OR the ultrasonic cleaner, but perhaps using both isn't necessary. The results with a dirtier chain may be different.
My next test will use the US cleaner first, as I want to see if the shake-up method can bring out any dirt that the US cleaner missed. I'll make sure I use a dirtier chain to start with, too!
I've included a photo of the chain case on my Dutch bike, as there was a comment about them above. I recently inspected the chain in that bike, and it was still very clean, after more than a year since the last clean, so a sealed chain case is very effective.
Re: Muc-off cleaner as an ultrasonic bath surfactant?
Posted: 25 Jun 2022, 6:16pm
by Jdsk
Congratulations on doing the experiment and thanks for posting the outcome.
That's how we get smarter! : - )
Jonathan
Re: Muc-off cleaner as an ultrasonic bath surfactant?
Posted: 28 Jun 2022, 3:51pm
by fastpedaller
I like the idea of the cowl - best to keep dirt off the chain instead of cleaning it off after it's on there
The idea of a chaincase is appealing, though difficult for a multi-speed. I like 'messing around with fibreglass' and started making a chaincase for my on-one pompino using GRP (glass reinforced plastic) last year, Being a single-speed it's a lot easier to make than a multi-speed, but even then there have been challenges....... 1. Allow sufficient clearance 2. Allow sufficient clearances for any subsequent chainring or sprocket changes 3. Allow removal of some parts at the roadside so the rear wheel can be removed because of a puncture 4. Make suitable mounts to attach the chaincase to the frame without damaging the paintwork 5.Make all fixings (required for parts which need removing in case of a puncture) removable and replaceable without tools (releasable cable ties)
I've made most of it, but other things have got in the schedule.