Does saying "sorry" help?

Airsporter1st
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Re: Does saying "sorry" help?

Post by Airsporter1st »

Tangled Metal wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 1:10pm Does it make it worse that it was child that was injured? It's there a hierarchy within our species in terms of seriousness? It seems so with the emphasis on it being a child that was injured.
I believe it does and that is certainly borne out in the case of road collisions. Children are seen as more vulnerable and not responsible for their actions.

Our local headmistress, who never drove anywhere above 20 mph, knocked over one of her own schoolchildren, who simply walked out into the road in front of her, not even looking to see if the road was clear. The driver had absolutely no chance of avoiding the collision.

As one of the main witnesses, I was interviewed and stated that in my opinion the child was 100% at fault. I was told that it didn't matter what the child had done or not done, because she was under the age of 16, the driver would automatically be adjudged to be at fault.
Tangled Metal
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Re: Does saying "sorry" help?

Post by Tangled Metal »

Is that fair?
Tiggertoo
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Re: Does saying "sorry" help?

Post by Tiggertoo »

" I was told that it didn't matter what the child had done or not done, because she was under the age of 16, the driver would automatically be adjudged to be at fault."

Reasonable enough. Children can not be expected to act responsibly but adults can and should.
thirdcrank
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Re: Does saying "sorry" help?

Post by thirdcrank »

Airsporter1st wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 1:35pm
Tangled Metal wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 1:10pm Does it make it worse that it was child that was injured? It's there a hierarchy within our species in terms of seriousness? It seems so with the emphasis on it being a child that was injured.
I believe it does and that is certainly borne out in the case of road collisions. Children are seen as more vulnerable and not responsible for their actions.

Our local headmistress, who never drove anywhere above 20 mph, knocked over one of her own schoolchildren, who simply walked out into the road in front of her, not even looking to see if the road was clear. The driver had absolutely no chance of avoiding the collision.

As one of the main witnesses, I was interviewed and stated that in my opinion the child was 100% at fault. I was told that it didn't matter what the child had done or not done, because she was under the age of 16, the driver would automatically be adjudged to be at fault.
(My bold)
What sort of interview was that? (Police? Insurance company?)
Airsporter1st
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Re: Does saying "sorry" help?

Post by Airsporter1st »

thirdcrank wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 3:32pm
Airsporter1st wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 1:35pm
Tangled Metal wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 1:10pm Does it make it worse that it was child that was injured? It's there a hierarchy within our species in terms of seriousness? It seems so with the emphasis on it being a child that was injured.
I believe it does and that is certainly borne out in the case of road collisions. Children are seen as more vulnerable and not responsible for their actions.

Our local headmistress, who never drove anywhere above 20 mph, knocked over one of her own schoolchildren, who simply walked out into the road in front of her, not even looking to see if the road was clear. The driver had absolutely no chance of avoiding the collision.

As one of the main witnesses, I was interviewed and stated that in my opinion the child was 100% at fault. I was told that it didn't matter what the child had done or not done, because she was under the age of 16, the driver would automatically be adjudged to be at fault.
(My bold)
What sort of interview was that? (Police? Insurance company?)
Insurance investigator who, coincidentally, was a former policeman.

The girl came from an estate which was expressly built to house 'problem' families. The headmistress received a tirade of abuse at the scene and afterwards, a brick through her house window and various other acts of retribution. she was a nervous wreck, which says something considering her vocation. Sometimes, there is just no justice. But I digress........
Jdsk
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Re: Does saying "sorry" help?

Post by Jdsk »

Tiggertoo wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 3:16pm " I was told that it didn't matter what the child had done or not done, because she was under the age of 16, the driver would automatically be adjudged to be at fault."

Reasonable enough. Children can not be expected to act responsibly but adults can and should.
In English civil law a child can be contributory negligent.

"Can an 8-year old child be contributory negligent?":
https://anthonygold.co.uk/latest/blog/c ... negligent/

Jonathan
mattheus
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Re: Does saying "sorry" help?

Post by mattheus »

Jdsk wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 4:06pm ...


In English civil law a child can be contributory negligent.

"Can an 8-year old child be contributory negligent?":
https://anthonygold.co.uk/latest/blog/c ... negligent/
Thanks for that.

There's a great statement by the judge. A lot of keyboard warriors commenting on incidents with their hindsight goggles on could learn from this:

Mrs Justice Yip stated the following:

“No matter how careful a parent is, it is impossible for children to be completely protected from risk. Keeping children cooped up and not allowing them to experiment with small freedoms carries its own risk. There is a difficult balance to be struck. Different parents in different circumstances will make different decisions about how best to strike that balance. Sadly, when something goes catastrophically wrong, a parent may look back and agonise over the choice they made. The fact that, with hindsight, they would have taken a different course is very far from establishing that their original choice was wrong, still less that they were negligent.”

[my bold]
thirdcrank
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Re: Does saying "sorry" help?

Post by thirdcrank »

Airsporter1st wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 4:00pm

Insurance investigator who, coincidentally, was a former policeman.

The girl came from an estate which was expressly built to house 'problem' families. The headmistress received a tirade of abuse at the scene and afterwards, a brick through her house window and various other acts of retribution. she was a nervous wreck, which says something considering her vocation. Sometimes, there is just no justice. But I digress........ (My bold)
Thanks for that. My reason for asking is that the only time I've ever been asked to give an opinion on fault was in an insurance company's pro forma inquiry after I had given my details as an independent witness to a crash, some years after I had retired. FWIW, I think they ask the question to see whose side the witness is on, especially if the subsequent account is garbled. The opinion of somebody who's not an expert witness has little evidential value, especially if it's influenced by irrelevant factors.

Insurance companies do employ retired police officers as investigators, but their training and work experience don't make them any sort of specialists in civil law. I think Jdsk's link about contributory negligence demonstrates that here
Airsporter1st
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Re: Does saying "sorry" help?

Post by Airsporter1st »

thirdcrank wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 4:38pm
Airsporter1st wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 4:00pm

Insurance investigator who, coincidentally, was a former policeman.

The girl came from an estate which was expressly built to house 'problem' families. The headmistress received a tirade of abuse at the scene and afterwards, a brick through her house window and various other acts of retribution. she was a nervous wreck, which says something considering her vocation. Sometimes, there is just no justice. But I digress........ (My bold)
Thanks for that. My reason for asking is that the only time I've ever been asked to give an opinion on fault was in an insurance company's pro forma inquiry after I had given my details as an independent witness to a crash, some years after I had retired. FWIW, I think they ask the question to see whose side the witness is on, especially if the subsequent account is garbled. The opinion of somebody who's not an expert witness has little evidential value, especially if it's influenced by irrelevant factors.

Insurance companies do employ retired police officers as investigators, but their training and work experience don't make them any sort of specialists in civil law. I think Jdsk's link about contributory negligence demonstrates that here
I tend to agree with much of what you say.

The investigator was representing the driver’s insurance company, so I don’t. believe he had any ulterior motive and I would suggest that my account was anything but garbled. Every accident form I’ve ever filled in (and there have been fortunately few), asks for my opinion, so there must be some weight given to it, surely? Is there no differentiation between a witness to an event and an expert witness called at a trial?
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PedallingSquares
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Re: Does saying "sorry" help?

Post by PedallingSquares »

mattheus wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 8:33am
PedallingSquares wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 6:28am
mattheus wrote: 22 Jun 2022, 5:03pm Well exactly.
M(r) Squares seems to be picking a fight with his binary views of the world. Does he think he's Paxman??
Not picking a fight at all.As for Binary views,well,unlike some I tend to think one word answers,ie yes or no,are more apt in certain circumstances.There seems to be a trend by some posters to write a mini essay instead.Why use a one word when fifty will do.I believe this is to circumvent actually committing to an answer so they can chop and change to fit in with the crowd.A frequent occurrence on these boards by a small band of posters.It's pretty much the same on most forums and always the same posters on each one and they all have pretty much the same MO in common.It's a pity one can't just delete those types from their personal board as the 'foe' option just shows they have posted but no text.This is better than nothing so at least one can bypass the chaff.

BTW it is Mr :wink:
Have you stopped beating your wife?
Excuse me?!
Where the hell did that accusation come from!?
thirdcrank
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Re: Does saying "sorry" help?

Post by thirdcrank »

Airsporter1st wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 5:33pm
thirdcrank wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 4:38pm
Airsporter1st wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 4:00pm

Insurance investigator who, coincidentally, was a former policeman.

The girl came from an estate which was expressly built to house 'problem' families. The headmistress received a tirade of abuse at the scene and afterwards, a brick through her house window and various other acts of retribution. she was a nervous wreck, which says something considering her vocation. Sometimes, there is just no justice. But I digress........ (My bold)
Thanks for that. My reason for asking is that the only time I've ever been asked to give an opinion on fault was in an insurance company's pro forma inquiry after I had given my details as an independent witness to a crash, some years after I had retired. FWIW, I think they ask the question to see whose side the witness is on, especially if the subsequent account is garbled. The opinion of somebody who's not an expert witness has little evidential value, especially if it's influenced by irrelevant factors.

Insurance companies do employ retired police officers as investigators, but their training and work experience don't make them any sort of specialists in civil law. I think Jdsk's link about contributory negligence demonstrates that here
I tend to agree with much of what you say.

The investigator was representing the driver’s insurance company, so I don’t. believe he had any ulterior motive and I would suggest that my account was anything but garbled. Every accident form I’ve ever filled in (and there have been fortunately few), asks for my opinion, so there must be some weight given to it, surely? Is there no differentiation between a witness to an event and an expert witness called at a trial?
Apologies for a lack of clarity on my part, probably the result of a misplaced attempt at brevity.

I didn't intend to suggest that your account was garbled, but many are, especially when written out on a form.

I was trying to move away from the implication that because a police officer says something about the law etc it must inevitably be so. Even more so in an area beyond their normal expertise.

An expert witness is a witness who is recognised as an expert in a particular field so they can give evidence of their opinion. A collision investigator might assess the mechanical condition and give their opinion about whether it caused or contributed to a crash, but there are experts in many field such as medicine, aeronautics you name it. In a case like yours, unless I've missed something your opinion would have no direct relevance. IMO, the wider point would be that your sympathy for the driver who you seem to know personally, and apparent disapproval of the casualty and her background might weaken your standing as an independent witness.
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Does saying "sorry" help?

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

hI,
reohn2 wrote: 22 Jun 2022, 8:50am
Tangled Metal wrote: 22 Jun 2022, 8:17am OK so let's get this straight here. Someone left the scene of an accident where someone was injured, it shouldn't matter who but it obviously does, and we're giving him credit for owning up later? He's written a letter of apology instead of staying at the scene, and we're giving him credit for that? A letter he's no doubt been advised to write to mitigate his actions.
Nail,head,on!
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mattheus
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Re: Does saying "sorry" help?

Post by mattheus »

PedallingSquares wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 6:21pm
mattheus wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 8:33am
PedallingSquares wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 6:28am

Not picking a fight at all.As for Binary views,well,unlike some I tend to think one word answers,ie yes or no,are more apt in certain circumstances.There seems to be a trend by some posters to write a mini essay instead.Why use a one word when fifty will do.I believe this is to circumvent actually committing to an answer so they can chop and change to fit in with the crowd.A frequent occurrence on these boards by a small band of posters.It's pretty much the same on most forums and always the same posters on each one and they all have pretty much the same MO in common.It's a pity one can't just delete those types from their personal board as the 'foe' option just shows they have posted but no text.This is better than nothing so at least one can bypass the chaff.

BTW it is Mr :wink:
Have you stopped beating your wife?
Excuse me?!
Where the hell did that accusation come from!?
Come on - Yes or No!
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PedallingSquares
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Re: Does saying "sorry" help?

Post by PedallingSquares »

mattheus wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 7:48pm
PedallingSquares wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 6:21pm
mattheus wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 8:33am Have you stopped beating your wife?
Excuse me?!
Where the hell did that accusation come from!?
Come on - Yes or No!
You are using a quite frankly discussing accusation/insinuation to try to prove your childish point.If you care to reread my posts I clearly stated in most cases a one word answer is sufficient.
Domestic abuse is not funny and should not be used to prove a point.
Bonefishblues
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Re: Does saying "sorry" help?

Post by Bonefishblues »

PedallingSquares wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 8:28pm
mattheus wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 7:48pm
PedallingSquares wrote: 24 Jun 2022, 6:21pm
Excuse me?!
Where the hell did that accusation come from!?
Come on - Yes or No!
You are using a quite frankly discussing accusation/insinuation to try to prove your childish point.If you care to reread my posts I clearly stated in most cases a one word answer is sufficient.
Domestic abuse is not funny and should not be used to prove a point.
Excellent
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