Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
Jon in Sweden
Posts: 611
Joined: 22 May 2022, 12:53pm

Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by Jon in Sweden »

This week I've been doing an intensive HGV course, training to drive articulated lorries.

The training is primarily city based, as that represents the most challenging aspect of driving a 44t lorry. Obviously, that means sharing the (very busy) roads with all other users.

The instructor wasn't too keen on cyclists, it's fair to say. He was very much of the opinion that they should stick to cycle routes. I pointed out to him that these cycle paths are not suitable for any serious cyclist, as they are extremely speed limiting, and dangerously start and stop with you ending up on the road anyway.

From having done a week behind the wheel now, there are a few observations I'd make:

* The roads are nowhere near big enough for lorries. Please, please (as a cyclist) understand that lorries have got literally no wiggle room at all on city roads. Unless you get the positioning absolutely 100% perfect, you will mount kerbs and smash into other vehicles. It's staggering just how cramped it is for HGVs. But they still do need to be in cities to make deliveries and such like.

* There is a spectrum of ability, fitness and road skills amongst cyclists. Some are painfully slow, holding up a lot of traffic, others aren't. Some perform unpredictable manoeuvres and others don't. E-bikes add an interesting x-factor with some cyclists going faster than their experience and fitness would usually allow.

* The change in the law means that in an urban setting, a lorry basically cannot pass you. It's rare to get a long enough stretch of road that's straight enough to allow an HGV to pull across and give the cyclist 1.5m clearance. Please keep this in mind if you feel you've had a lorry behind you for a mile or two and you're wondering why they aren't going past.

* Never, ever pass on the inside of a lorry on a turn. The rear end will cut the corner, each and every time. You will get wiped out.

It's just interesting to have it from this perspective too. I'm a keen cyclist, and having this experience in the largest vehicles on our roads will help me be a better cyclist, I feel.
francovendee
Posts: 3148
Joined: 5 May 2009, 6:32am

Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by francovendee »

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience.
I think it shows how much need there is to separate bikes from cars and trucks, especially in built up areas.

I'm a car driver and a cyclist. Tractors can be a problem dependent on whether driving or cycling.
It can be frustrating to have to follow a tractor for miles at 25 mph in the car. If you're lucky the driver will pull into a lay-by to let you pass but rarely.
If I'm on a small road when cycling a tractor approaching from behind means I look for the nearest place to pull over and let them pass.
They are working and I'm not.
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by reohn2 »

I take you point about being careful around HGVs in confined road spaces,but there's no need for the vast majority of HGVs to be in cities and certainly not when footfall and other traffic is at it's most dense,UK city centre roads are not designed for articulated HGVs that seems obvious to me at least.
There are other ways and types of vehicles that could be used far safer and more effectively.
The fact is shoehorning HGVs into cities should be stopped IMO,and replaced with smaller vehicles working from out of city distrubution hubs and those vehicles should be as green as is humanly possible.
Obviously there'll be exceptions to the rule,there has to be,but wherever possible that should be kept to an absolute minimum and or only when the streets have least footfall and traffic flow.
FWIW IMO private cars should also be banned from town and city centres too,with only very few that qualify by strict law.

Some of your points about cyclists are correct of course,there are some outright nutters and idiots riding bikes on UK roads as there are similarly so driving cars,etc
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by thirdcrank »

Jon in Sweden wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 9:01am This week I've been doing an intensive HGV course, training to drive articulated lorries.

The training is primarily city based, as that represents the most challenging aspect of driving a 44t lorry. Obviously, that means sharing the (very busy) roads with all other users.

The instructor wasn't too keen on cyclists, it's fair to say. He was very much of the opinion that they should stick to cycle routes. I pointed out to him that these cycle paths are not suitable for any serious cyclist, as they are extremely speed limiting, and dangerously start and stop with you ending up on the road anyway.

From having done a week behind the wheel now, there are a few observations I'd make:

* The roads are nowhere near big enough for lorries. Please, please (as a cyclist) understand that lorries have got literally no wiggle room at all on city roads. Unless you get the positioning absolutely 100% perfect, you will mount kerbs and smash into other vehicles. It's staggering just how cramped it is for HGVs. But they still do need to be in cities to make deliveries and such like.

* There is a spectrum of ability, fitness and road skills amongst cyclists. Some are painfully slow, holding up a lot of traffic, others aren't. Some perform unpredictable manoeuvres and others don't. E-bikes add an interesting x-factor with some cyclists going faster than their experience and fitness would usually allow.

* The change in the law means that in an urban setting, a lorry basically cannot pass you. It's rare to get a long enough stretch of road that's straight enough to allow an HGV to pull across and give the cyclist 1.5m clearance. Please keep this in mind if you feel you've had a lorry behind you for a mile or two and you're wondering why they aren't going past.

* Never, ever pass on the inside of a lorry on a turn. The rear end will cut the corner, each and every time. You will get wiped out.

It's just interesting to have it from this perspective too. I'm a keen cyclist, and having this experience in the largest vehicles on our roads will help me be a better cyclist, I feel.
(My bold)
It seems a pity that somebody employed to teach the considerable technical skills needed to drive HGVs should allow his prejudices to risk spoiling the equally important attitudes needed in that work which brings with it big responsibilities for the safety of others.

Good luck with what sounds to be your new career. I hope you will use your cycling experience to be a first-rate HGV driver. You may need personal toughness when you are in company of other truckers when they are slagging off cyclists but I hope you will "Dare to be a Daniel" and remind them of their responsibilities to others. Fortunately, the law is going increasingly in that general direction.
User avatar
Cugel
Posts: 5430
Joined: 13 Nov 2017, 11:14am

Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by Cugel »

francovendee wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 9:20am Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience.
I think it shows how much need there is to separate bikes from cars and trucks, especially in built up areas.

I'm a car driver and a cyclist. Tractors can be a problem dependent on whether driving or cycling.
It can be frustrating to have to follow a tractor for miles at 25 mph in the car. If you're lucky the driver will pull into a lay-by to let you pass but rarely.
If I'm on a small road when cycling a tractor approaching from behind means I look for the nearest place to pull over and let them pass.
They are working and I'm not.
The perspectives of others are always interesting, especially when those others are found on the roads we're cycling. It is rather worrying that many (including some cyclists) not only have no idea of the perspectives of other road users but appear not to understand that there can be different perspectives from their own.

Part of the problem is our Western (especially anglo-saxon) cultural tendency to think entirely in terms of "my rights" with little or no thought to "my duties". A lot of people seem oblivious to the connection - this right for me requires those duties of others to allow or facilitate them. And vise-versa.

There's also that impatience thing you mention. Something about our culture and its various transportation modes seems to encourage or even demand that we go as quickly as possible from A to B, otherwise "something" is lost. I'm aware that some vehicle types come with this encouragement built-in (racing bikes, sports cars, two-wheeled IoM-style hooning machines) but we should be capable of putting these "demands of the vehicle" aside in favour of safety and just good manners, eh? Easier said than done, I know.

**********
In West Wales the great majority of roads, including the A-roads, are very narrow and also without footways. They're also enclosed by steep turfed-wall banks with hedges on top, so there's no escape if some eagerly thrusting vehicle tries to push past you through the often very narrow spaces. Sounds like that city experience in an artic. They have those bluddy great things in West Wales too, usually wider than one half of the road.

Personally I feel that such vehicles should either be banned from roads too narrow for them or made to travel very slowly, as with tractors pulling wide machinery. It bothers me that the village I live in has a 40mph speed limit through a mile or more of narrow bank-enclosed lane that is full of blind bends and has a gateway, house-drive or other junction about every 50 yards, both sides. Artics go through here at dangerous speeds and occasionally kill a pedestrian, as the signs either end of the road tell - "N accidents in X years" sort of signs. And there's the usual portion of madly-speeding cars "on a mission" to get back in time to watch episode 86,094 of a crappy soap opera.

Still, the wise (and perhaps good-mannered) thing for cyclists to do when presented with such big vehicles is to give them room, let them pass or otherwise accommodate them. In any jousting for "rights", the cyclist is highly likely to lose.

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
Chris56
Posts: 213
Joined: 3 May 2020, 9:30pm

Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by Chris56 »

Cugel wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 9:54am

Part of the problem is our Western (especially anglo-saxon) cultural tendency to think entirely in terms of "my rights" with little or no thought to "my duties". A lot of people seem oblivious to the connection
I couldn't agree more with this statement. People don't always realise that with every right comes a responsibility. I started a thread recently that resulted in a great deal of discussion about "right of way" vs the responsibility to avoid an accident.

@Jon in Sweeden, RE HGVs it is helpful to hear the perspective from inside the cab. Its a shame the instructor couldn't keep his opinions to himself but it sounds like you dealt with him well. When cycling (or indeed driving) there has to be an an appreciation that visibilty, stopping distance and the ability to swerve safely are all resticted on HGVs due to their size/weight. I always wince when I see somebody undertake one at a junction!

There is an old saying "never judge somebody until you have walked in their shoes"* and it sounds like younhave had that experience.

* The comeback to that phrase however is "because then you will be a mile away and have their shoes"
Jon in Sweden
Posts: 611
Joined: 22 May 2022, 12:53pm

Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by Jon in Sweden »

Good points and interesting to read, all of you :D

I'm only doing the training course and licence so that I'm able to move my own machines (I work in forestry) when we move to Sweden in a month. I doubt I'll do more than 2-3 hrs of driving a week, and rural Sweden bears zero resemblance to central Exeter.

I think the most useful takeaway is that every road user would benefit from seeing the perspective of every other road user. Trust me, in the cab of an artic, you understand that your job is intensely difficult in an urban setting, and that nothing less than 100% concentration will do.

But similarly, a cyclist's perspective is equally valuable.

I'm so glad to be leaving the UK, but my primary feeling is that almost all of the issues on roads here are caused by a total lack of investment. I don't use the cycle paths (and I cycled to my training, 26km through Exeter and the surrounding countryside in each direction) because they constantly require me to stop and start at pedestrian crossings, they disappear and reappear, drop me onto the road and back off it. And you share the space with pedestrians. As a faster than average cyclist, it's far safer for me to be on the road.

From a cyclists perspective, it's awful as there is no infrastructure that is adequate to keep a volume of cyclists safe, whilst efficiently getting them from A to B. From a lorry drivers perspective, it's ridiculous that our roads are so narrow, potholed and congested. It means I struggle to make decent progress, or have to drive through villages because all alternative routes are too narrow/too windy.
User avatar
PedallingSquares
Posts: 548
Joined: 13 Mar 2022, 11:01am

Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by PedallingSquares »

Jon in Sweden wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 9:01am This week I've been doing an intensive HGV course, training to drive articulated lorries.

The training is primarily city based, as that represents the most challenging aspect of driving a 44t lorry. Obviously, that means sharing the (very busy) roads with all other users.

The instructor wasn't too keen on cyclists, it's fair to say. He was very much of the opinion that they should stick to cycle routes. I pointed out to him that these cycle paths are not suitable for any serious cyclist, as they are extremely speed limiting, and dangerously start and stop with you ending up on the road anyway.

From having done a week behind the wheel now, there are a few observations I'd make:

* The roads are nowhere near big enough for lorries. Please, please (as a cyclist) understand that lorries have got literally no wiggle room at all on city roads. Unless you get the positioning absolutely 100% perfect, you will mount kerbs and smash into other vehicles. It's staggering just how cramped it is for HGVs. But they still do need to be in cities to make deliveries and such like.

* There is a spectrum of ability, fitness and road skills amongst cyclists. Some are painfully slow, holding up a lot of traffic, others aren't. Some perform unpredictable manoeuvres and others don't. E-bikes add an interesting x-factor with some cyclists going faster than their experience and fitness would usually allow.

* The change in the law means that in an urban setting, a lorry basically cannot pass you. It's rare to get a long enough stretch of road that's straight enough to allow an HGV to pull across and give the cyclist 1.5m clearance. Please keep this in mind if you feel you've had a lorry behind you for a mile or two and you're wondering why they aren't going past.

* Never, ever pass on the inside of a lorry on a turn. The rear end will cut the corner, each and every time. You will get wiped out.

It's just interesting to have it from this perspective too. I'm a keen cyclist, and having this experience in the largest vehicles on our roads will help me be a better cyclist, I feel.
Excellent insight that unless you have been in the cab of an HGV you would not realise.I haven't driven a HGV on the road but have driven them on site and even with rear wheel steering assistance it's an eye-opener just how much space one needs to manoeuvre!When you then see some of the spaces these drivers have to reverse into it shows just how good these people are.....then you go to Asda and see some folk can't even reverse a rollerskate sized car into a parking bay!I have the uttermost respect for our HGV drivers and think they are very much undervalued.
Maybe a day as a passenger in an HGV should be part of everyones learning to drive process.
Likewise I've always said that every potential car driver should have to spend 2 years riding a moped before being allowed to learn to drive a car to give perspective on how vulnerable it is on two wheels.
Education is a wonderful thing.
Stevek76
Posts: 2085
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by Stevek76 »

Jon in Sweden wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 9:01am But they still do need to be in cities to make deliveries and such like.
Well they probably don't really. That's a logistics problem though and one that councils will probably have to be the drivers of change for.

It's not a case that the roads area too small for 40t hgvs, it's that 40t hgvs (and in many cases even much smaller vehicles) are too big for urban roads built on centuries old rights of way.

Needs to be much more freight consolidation and last mile goods shipments by smaller vehicles with the larger trucks kept to intercity movements on roads they actually fit in.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
User avatar
531colin
Posts: 16083
Joined: 4 Dec 2009, 6:56pm
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by 531colin »

Stevek76 wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 11:54am ...............It's not a case that the roads area too small for 40t hgvs, it's that 40t hgvs (and in many cases even much smaller vehicles) are too big for urban roads built on centuries old rights of way.............
^^^^^^^THIS!!!! and not just urban roads. Yorkshire minor roads are steep, bendy, lined with stone walls and poor sight lines. They have always been that way, long before motor vehicles came on the scene.
Its impossible to accommodate these huge vehicles on most of our roads, its ludicrous to try, and its ludicrous to blame the driver (or the cyclist) when the system fails
pwa
Posts: 17366
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by pwa »

In my various jobs over the years I have been driving fairly large vehicles on all sorts of road, right down to single track with passing places, and it certainly requires skill and concentration. My experiences with cyclists, when driving, have been mostly okay. Alright, every so often I will have an urban kid dart across the road in front of me in a way not in accordance with good practice, to put it mildly, but I don't view cyclists generally as a great problem. No more so than all the other folk on and beside the roads.

When I encounter very large vehicles on narrow roads I generally give way, whether I am driving or cycling, because I know the difficulties the driver of the large vehicle faces. And we, the public, put those vehicles there. We buy from shops that require deliveries, we buy or rent homes that have to be built, we buy milk that has to be collected from farms up narrow lanes. So when I see an HGV driver struggling to get through a congested bit of road, I hold back and give them as much space as I can.
Stevek76
Posts: 2085
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by Stevek76 »

531colin wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 12:02pm ^^^^^^^THIS!!!! and not just urban roads. Yorkshire minor roads are steep, bendy, lined with stone walls and poor sight lines.
Yes good point, a number of rural areas where there is very little suitable trunk road provision and others where its reasonable but large hgvs are used for all parts of the routes regardless.

With the right conditions alternatives can work, eg the early success of cycle couriers such as pedalme in London. Hgv use is quite like car use in that it's effectively state subsidised to quite a high level by being able to externalise its issues onto everyone else. The duties paid by companies to shift goods by hgvs doesn't even come close to covering the costs that causes via road damage, pollution and casualties.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
axel_knutt
Posts: 2880
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 12:20pm

Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by axel_knutt »

Jon in Sweden wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 10:33amI think the most useful takeaway is that every road user would benefit from seeing the perspective of every other road user.
For some years now, I have been taking every opportunity I can find to advocate that a significant amount of cycling experience should be a prerequisite for obtaining a driving licence. 83% of cyclists drive but only 30% of motorists cycle, which I think is why cyclists make safer drivers.
(This statistic makes quite an effective tool for shutting up ranting drivers on Twitter.)
It's a pity that it's somewhat less practical to give everyone HGV training.
Jon in Sweden wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 10:33am I don't use the cycle paths because they constantly require me to stop and start
With somewhat less success, I also take every opportunity to point out how much energy is wasted by stop-start cycling. Side roads in a built-up area are typically spaced at roughly 100m intervals, and at 12mph a cyclist who is forced to stop every 100m will roughly double his energy expenditure:
stopping.png
Therefore any cycle facility that requires repeated stopping and starting either won't get used, or people won't stop....and what is it motorists keep complaining about? I can only wonder how cyclists who ridicule me for suggesting that stopping wastes energy think that regenerative brakes work.
Jon in Sweden wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 9:01amNever, ever pass on the inside of a lorry on a turn.
And yet that's just what cycle lanes are inviting people to do.
So which is it.png
So which is it.JPG
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
Mike Sales
Posts: 7882
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by Mike Sales »

Stevek76 wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 12:39pm
Yes good point, a number of rural areas where there is very little suitable trunk road provision and others where its reasonable but large hgvs are used for all parts of the routes regardless.

With the right conditions alternatives can work, eg the early success of cycle couriers such as pedalme in London. Hgv use is quite like car use in that it's effectively state subsidised to quite a high level by being able to externalise its issues onto everyone else. The duties paid by companies to shift goods by hgvs doesn't even come close to covering the costs that causes via road damage, pollution and casualties.
I was going to make the same point.
Rail haulage, which is better for pollution, damage and casualties, has to pay for these social goods, whereas road haulage can use its advantages, using one vehicle for every part of its flexible delivery capability, without having to consider these problems, which we all have to bear.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
axel_knutt
Posts: 2880
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 12:20pm

Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by axel_knutt »

531colin wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 12:02pm Its impossible to accommodate these huge vehicles on most of our roads, its ludicrous to try, and its ludicrous to blame the driver (or the cyclist) when the system fails
It clearly isn't impossible, it's already being done, but it comes with the disadvantages listed here, and also advantages like economy of scale. Four 10 ton trucks instead of one 40 ton immediately quadruples the cost of driver's labour, significantly increases the fuel cost, and adds the cost of extra distribution depots to transfer the loads.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
Post Reply