Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

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Mike Sales
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Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by Mike Sales »

Jon in Sweden wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 9:30pm For reference (regarding pollution):

An artic takes up twice the road space of a 7.5t lorry, uses twice as much fuel, but carries 7 times as much weight.

It is 3.5 times more fuel and space efficient to use artics.

Most of the fuel cost is overcoming air resistance. Frontal area of an artic isn't massively bigger than a 7.5t lorry.
This discussion began with comments about artics sharing streets with bikes, and even just the difficulty of getting and artic round narrow streets at all.
Some contributors raised the idea of transhipping loads into smaller units for distribution.
Your comparisons are about moving complete loads on free moving roads, which is a very different situation. If you want to find the most fuel and pollution efficient way of moving complete loads, rail will come out on top. Aerodynamics are unimportant driving around town.
This comparison has a limited application, not one which would improve our towns and cities.
As PWA points out, big lorries are more suited to the out of town shopping sheds which are convenient for car use but destroy town centres.
I have no car and reaching these places involves more walking and waiting at bus stops (i can no longer cycle). I feel the world is more and more built for the motorised, which is not the way to cut carbon emissions. A compact town centre is much more apt for the unmotorised, and trying to get cars and worse, artics, into it is difficult.
I will soon have another hospital visit, which involves two bus trips each way. The hospital, like the retail sheds, has moved out of town, partly to accomodate the huge car park which i trudge past on my way to the entrance doors. Motorists complain about parking problems! So do hospital workers complain about having to pay for parking. Should buses be free for hospital workers?
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
pwa
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Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by pwa »

I was mulling this stuff over and remembered the days when I worked on landscaping projects where we ordered thousands of plants at a time from a large grower in (if I remember correctly) Herefordshire. They timed deliveries so that they could send one artic to deliver to a string of customers in one region on one day. So an artic would reach us after first delivering to, say, Newport and Caerphilly, then us near Bridgend, and perhaps then on to Swansea for a final drop. We might have four to six pallets of closely packed plants, along with a few trees. The driver didn't have to go too far from the motorway to get to us but some of the other drops might have been trickier to access. Logistics is quite a complex matter to work out, with operators sometimes having different challenges each day. The grower could have sent our delivery on a smaller lorry, but that would have managed fewer drops in one trip, so it would have needed more trips.
pwa
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Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by pwa »

Mike Sales wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 9:53pm .............. Should buses be free for hospital workers?
My son is a hospital worker and would love to live close enough to work to cut out the car use, but he can't afford to live near the hospital. Housing costs too much within a ten mile radius. Public transport starts too late to be of use to him at the moment. He is trying to find housing nearer to work, which involves both higher prices and lower housing quality. I can see why recruitment is an issue in some hospitals. It is just so difficult and expensive for people to get to work when they cannot afford to live nearby.
reohn2
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Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by reohn2 »

pwa wrote: 26 Jun 2022, 4:57am
Mike Sales wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 9:53pm .............. Should buses be free for hospital workers?
My son is a hospital worker and would love to live close enough to work to cut out the car use, but he can't afford to live near the hospital. Housing costs too much within a ten mile radius. Public transport starts too late to be of use to him at the moment. He is trying to find housing nearer to work, which involves both higher prices and lower housing quality. I can see why recruitment is an issue in some hospitals. It is just so difficult and expensive for people to get to work when they cannot afford to live nearby.
Which tells you that the country doesn't value it's health workers enough to care for them.
Back on thread,we also don't value the people who have live and work in toens and cities when we(in the form of government) allow HGVs and cars into them making very slow progress therefore increasing pollution in the form of emissions,noise and streets littered with parked vehicles,causing health issues in the form of respiratory diseases,unnecessary stress,broken bodies due to carelss driving,etc,etc,in turn putting even more stress on our health service.
It seems to me we've built a system that's not sustainable which we seem powerless and or unwilling to change for the good of ourselves in the name of convenience.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
thirdcrank
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Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by thirdcrank »

I've missed the connection with the drivers of articulated lorries but IMO there's quite a lot to be said for free public transport for all, subject to restrictions preventing the resulting freed up road capacity being taken up by cars.

To declare an interest I had free bus travel thanks to Roy Jenkins from around 1975 ish till I retired, then the pensioners' bus pass from age 60.
Jdsk
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Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by Jdsk »

thirdcrank wrote: 26 Jun 2022, 11:19am I've missed the connection with the drivers of articulated lorries but IMO there's quite a lot to be said for free public transport for all, subject to restrictions preventing the resulting freed up road capacity being taken up by cars.
Yes.

Jonathan
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simonineaston
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Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by simonineaston »

Jon in Sweden wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 9:01am This week I've been doing an intensive HGV course, training to drive articulated lorries.
Yes, another Thank-you for taking the time and trouble to post on the forum. The more communication there is between groups, the better - on the whole! It was interesting to read your comments.
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Jdsk
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Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by Jdsk »

simonineaston wrote: 26 Jun 2022, 11:37am
Jon in Sweden wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 9:01am This week I've been doing an intensive HGV course, training to drive articulated lorries.
Yes, another Thank-you for taking the time and trouble to post on the forum. The more communication there is between groups, the better - on the whole! It was interesting to read your comments.
Well said.

Jonathan
reohn2
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Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by reohn2 »

thirdcrank wrote: 26 Jun 2022, 11:19am I've missed the connection with the drivers of articulated lorries but IMO there's quite a lot to be said for free public transport for all, subject to restrictions preventing the resulting freed up road capacity being taken up by cars.

To declare an interest I had free bus travel thanks to Roy Jenkins from around 1975 ish till I retired, then the pensioners' bus pass from age 60.
There's currently industrial action on our railways due to staff not being treated fairly,whilst at the same time shareholders of rail companies are being paid dividends,rail fares are sky high as the railways are being subsidised by the government,it's a similar story for buses.
Whilst free local public transport outside rush hour times is OK for us pensioners,not so the rest of society,the sooner the UK public transport system is run properly as a service the better IMHO.
EDITED for clarity
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
thirdcrank
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Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by thirdcrank »

According to Dr B Ching, the basic funding model now is that the Train Operating Companies (TOCs) operate the trains - or some of them - and remit any fare revenue to the government, which in turn pays them handsomely for operating the trains. Meanwhile Network rail pays "eye-watering" sums to consultants to do what used to be done by British Rail and its predecessors more cheaply.
mattsccm
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Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by mattsccm »

I guess that like many here I am not greatly in sympathy.
My overidng belief is that if a vehicle cannot stay within their own section of road then they shoud not be there. Lorries going wide for sharp bends is my pet hate.
I care not one toss about the need to do a job.
My only exception to this rule will be tractors.
Agriculture takes precedent over virtually everything in my book and most definitely over recreation seekers.
Jon in Sweden
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Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by Jon in Sweden »

mattsccm wrote: 26 Jun 2022, 1:06pm I guess that like many here I am not greatly in sympathy.
My overidng belief is that if a vehicle cannot stay within their own section of road then they shoud not be there. Lorries going wide for sharp bends is my pet hate.
I care not one toss about the need to do a job.
My only exception to this rule will be tractors.
Agriculture takes precedent over virtually everything in my book and most definitely over recreation seekers.
Why do you differentiate between tractors and lorries?

It may be a pet hate of yours that lorries need to go wide, but do you understand how an articulated lorry moves? The trailer cuts the corner. It's basic physics. To not turn wide would be hit the kerb/railing/wall/cyclist/pedestrian/building etc.

It's quite unfortunate that there is so much resentment of lorries here. I am, as previously stated, a keen cyclist. All I'm trying to do is to offer a perspective that most of you won't have.

Virtually everything you have in your house will have been on a lorry. Rail is not an appropriate alternative, as a lorry will still be required to load and unload it.

The issue is not the size of the lorries, it is the size of the roads and the lack of investment in them. We're moving to Sweden in a month, and I cannot think of any places I've ever driven there that come close to resembling the sh!tshow that is almost any UK town or city. Lorries have space to manoeuvre, but largely don't need to as all towns and cities have bypasses.

Please don't direct your anger at the people that are employed to deliver your goods. Direct it at the governments and councils that fail to invest, the NIMBYs that fail to allow progress. We can all share the road safely if the road is build to be safe. UK roads are a terrible experience for almost all road users.
Pebble
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Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by Pebble »

Jon in Sweden wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 9:01am This week I've been doing an intensive HGV course, training to drive articulated lorries.

The training is primarily city based, as that represents the most challenging aspect of driving a 44t lorry. Obviously, that means sharing the (very busy) roads with all other users.

The instructor wasn't too keen on cyclists, it's fair to say. He was very much of the opinion that they should stick to cycle routes. I pointed out to him that these cycle paths are not suitable for any serious cyclist, as they are extremely speed limiting, and dangerously start and stop with you ending up on the road anyway.

From having done a week behind the wheel now, there are a few observations I'd make:

* The roads are nowhere near big enough for lorries. Please, please (as a cyclist) understand that lorries have got literally no wiggle room at all on city roads. Unless you get the positioning absolutely 100% perfect, you will mount kerbs and smash into other vehicles. It's staggering just how cramped it is for HGVs. But they still do need to be in cities to make deliveries and such like.

* There is a spectrum of ability, fitness and road skills amongst cyclists. Some are painfully slow, holding up a lot of traffic, others aren't. Some perform unpredictable manoeuvres and others don't. E-bikes add an interesting x-factor with some cyclists going faster than their experience and fitness would usually allow.

* The change in the law means that in an urban setting, a lorry basically cannot pass you. It's rare to get a long enough stretch of road that's straight enough to allow an HGV to pull across and give the cyclist 1.5m clearance. Please keep this in mind if you feel you've had a lorry behind you for a mile or two and you're wondering why they aren't going past.

* Never, ever pass on the inside of a lorry on a turn. The rear end will cut the corner, each and every time. You will get wiped out.

It's just interesting to have it from this perspective too. I'm a keen cyclist, and having this experience in the largest vehicles on our roads will help me be a better cyclist, I feel.
So are you actually training in a fully loaded wagon (6x2 pulling a triaxle) ? and what sort of box, (most are auto now) but you could still end up with a range change splitter or even a twin splitter, lol (best box ever invented, when you got used to them))

You were right about needing six 7½ tonners to do the same work, puddlejumpers will only carry 3.5 to 4t with a heavy typically carrying 26t. As a cyclist I would rather one artic passed than half a dozen 7.5 tonners, from my experiance these along with the giant sprinter type vans are the most recklessly driven commercials on the road.

Do artics cause that much problems in cities? every time I read of cyclists being killed by wagons it seems to be 6 and 8 legged ridgid tippers, (part of the haulage industry traditionally associated with bonus culture!)

As usual getting stuff on the railways always crops up, but it just doesn't work in a small country, the goods still have to get to the train then at the other end taken by lorry from the train to its destination, probaly works out at 50% of the milage. So you are not getting rid of the wagons in the cities or rural areas (farms) you are just reducing traffic on motorways. And from an environmental point of view the energy saved on the trunking will be used up in the handling, 26 ton wagon to train then 26t train to wagon. And the timescale would be many days not hours, not to mention our railways are already at full capacity.
thirdcrank
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Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by thirdcrank »

Jon in Sweden wrote: 26 Jun 2022, 3:15pm
mattsccm wrote: 26 Jun 2022, 1:06pm I guess that like many here I am not greatly in sympathy.
My overidng belief is that if a vehicle cannot stay within their own section of road then they shoud not be there. Lorries going wide for sharp bends is my pet hate.
I care not one toss about the need to do a job.
My only exception to this rule will be tractors.
Agriculture takes precedent over virtually everything in my book and most definitely over recreation seekers.
Why do you differentiate between tractors and lorries?

It may be a pet hate of yours that lorries need to go wide, but do you understand how an articulated lorry moves? The trailer cuts the corner. It's basic physics. To not turn wide would be hit the kerb/railing/wall/cyclist/pedestrian/building etc.

It's quite unfortunate that there is so much resentment of lorries here. I am, as previously stated, a keen cyclist. All I'm trying to do is to offer a perspective that most of you won't have.

Virtually everything you have in your house will have been on a lorry. Rail is not an appropriate alternative, as a lorry will still be required to load and unload it.

The issue is not the size of the lorries, it is the size of the roads and the lack of investment in them. We're moving to Sweden in a month, and I cannot think of any places I've ever driven there that come close to resembling the sh!tshow that is almost any UK town or city. Lorries have space to manoeuvre, but largely don't need to as all towns and cities have bypasses.

Please don't direct your anger at the people that are employed to deliver your goods. Direct it at the governments and councils that fail to invest, the NIMBYs that fail to allow progress. We can all share the road safely if the road is build to be safe. UK roads are a terrible experience for almost all road users.
One of this issues for me concerns attitudes and those apparently taught by your instructor do nobody any favours. So much of this is survivor's justice: if a cyclist is killed alongside a lorry, it's all too easy that the cyclist was a "space invader" when it's possible that the driver began to overtake the cyclist then ignored their presence.
Pebble
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Joined: 7 Jun 2020, 11:59pm

Re: Interesting perspective from artic lorry driving

Post by Pebble »

awavey wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 1:29pm
Jon in Sweden wrote: 25 Jun 2022, 9:01am
* Never, ever pass on the inside of a lorry on a turn. The rear end will cut the corner, each and every time. You will get wiped out.
as a cyclist more than aware of my mortality, I never ever would, HGVs scare me, so explain to me why do lorry drivers always overtake me in this situation and therefore put me in that exact position ? I cant vanish or teleport out the way, so what can I do ?
If he has just overtaken you then he should be fully aware of your presence and be watching out for you. If you are undertaking lorries then there is that chance he may not have seen you and doesn't know you are there, they should be in their near side mirror every time they move left or get closer to the kerb, but in the real world they could be at the end of a very long day and make a mistake, I know that is no excuse but it is reality. So for me I would be far more confident of undertaking a wagon that has just past me then undertaking one that may not know i'm about.

The vast majority of wagon drivers are very good and very careful, I know boys with a million miles and not so much as a scratch, and to achieve that in a big bendy on the UKs overcrowded roads including predicting and avoiding everyone else's mistakes is quite some achievement.
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