Di2 - merged thread

[RideToWorky]

Hiya Cugel,

Thanks for the reply as well

Having recently acquired a Di2 festooned biccyle (it was 42% off in a sale) I now spend time worrying about the cost of Di2 spares, mysterious electronic glitched that might occur 50 mile from home and so forth. So I might as well have a battery-charging dynamo to worry about as well, as it won't increase the worry, will it? (Will it)?

Of course, that’s how to afford one of these fancy bikes!
End of season sales etc.
I got my 105 mechanical bike, with 33% off - right place right time - Be nice to be a bit more ‘ long term looking for’ for the next bike though!


Hi All,

RE: Charging maintenance
Yup, goods points from everyone! Thanks

[Cugel]

I have never seen why I am supposed to want electronic shifting. What is the advantage for me? My cable shifting systems work fine and I can maintain them to keep them that way. I have never noticed pushing a lever being any effort. And anything with a battery needs monitoring for charge level, especially if you have a long ride coming up. Why would I want to introduce yet another battery into my life when I have nothing to gain from doing that? Except a bit more lightness in the wallet department. What am I missing?

Like you I'm sceptical of the whole notion of Progress (with the capital "P") as it's often used as a synonym for "change for change sake". I acquired Di2 by chance - it happened to be on a new e-bike I lusted after that was of the very configuration I wanted (whole bike-wise) with the e-motor system I know and like .... and 42% off the list price.

So far I've noticed two small advantages with the electric changing: it's much easier to get running right (clean changes, no chain drop etc,) and appears to be much simpler in construction - apart from the blackbox innards of the electronics of course. The user-facing adjustments and controls seem simpler and more accurate than mechanical systems, of which I've used a great many over the decades.

There are also little "extras" such as auto-changing of the gears when moving between chainrings, to avoid having to also yourself change the rear gear to avoid the large ratio-jump. Meh.

But the blackbox elements are the source of great disadvantages: price and the inability of the user to fix.

In conclusion, if you can afford Di2, including very expensive replacement parts, then the system is very swish in operation and nice to use. If it proves reliable, all well and good. If it tends to throw wobblers, I'll bite the bullet and replace mine with mechanicals, as I don't want to be stranded a long way from home with a large impending bill for a new blackbox.

Cugel

[rareposter]

This is indeed one of my concerns.
How waterproof are those connectors etc. in real life?
I faintly recall water ingress problems reported with early Di2 systems

Early Di2 had an external battery, quite a lumpy little thing mounted on the downtube just above the BB. Any water ingress problems were invariably there. Also, in the early days, the frames weren't drilled for Di2, it was sometimes a bodge job to fit it.
Modern Di2 is entirely internal (and frames are made specifically for it), the battery can be tucked away in any number of places, the junction box is similarly hidden (often inside the stem or you can also get a "bar end plug" version. OUt the way, out of the water. Since the connectors never need to be touched unless you really are doing a complete total strip and rebuild of the bike right down to bare frame, they're solid. You plug them in with a special tool and it's a solid "thunk" connection which is then watertight.
Look at how many days of pro bike races over the last 10 years have been ridden in torrential condition - yes I know the bikes are washed and cleaned afterwards but the gears are clearly working.

Wow!
Can I check - the system detects a crash - and auto disconnects?
What about false jolts - E.g. if one bunny hops off a high pavement etc.?!
How does one reset the system - if all disconnected?!

Sort of - it doesn't so much "detect" a crash as have a mechanical "bump stop" which is a sort of clutch system that disconnects. The mech will still work (depending on how bent the hanger is) and in some instances, it'll even figure out what it needs to do to stop the chain jumping all over the place but it can be reset at the junction box. Press and hold the button for 5 seconds and it'll go into recovery mode, you need to be turning the cranks and the system will re-engage, cycle through all the gears up and down and sort of readjust itself. You can do it roadside, it's a straightforward fix.

There's a video here of setting it up to customise the system as well as to work with your head unit (you can control the GPS unit from the shifter hoods too):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEWoKLbO1SA

[cycle tramp]

...growing up with friction shifters I'll never use electronic, but after Rareposter explained the principles (using small words and real short sentences) I can understand the benefits and perhaps even the opportunities it brings (perhaps a heart rate monitor link, so if your heart hits the danger zone the electronic shifter goes down into easier gears until you're out of danger)..

...the main difficulty I have is that it links consumers into a specific group set.. its annoying because shimano are clever enough to perhaps build a tune-able retrofit system.

When I last went to a bike shop and spoke to them about delivery times, they told me that some of the earliest delivery dates that, they have been quoted are for 2024...

...For those watching international news, it's becoming clear that China is paving its way towards its own 'special military operations' to take back Japan and Taiwan. If/When that does happen- this will mean complete disruption to the bicycle supply chain. Even afterwards, the Western world may then ban imports from China and even if it didn't I suspect there would be an emotional boycott of goods from any country which took aggressive action against other countries which were moving towards and achieving their own democracy..

..It may be a good time for everyone to move towards a universe groupset where everything works with everything else regards of the manufacturer, before events dictate that we do so...

Sunrace Sturmey Archer and Shimano, if you've not done so already, please open factories in Europe.. I'm sure there will be cyclists in Europe and Britain who will invest in you if you do... (speaking selfishly I would. I like your drum brakes and moped drum brakes are really heavy)

China if you are listening; You have a population which are friendly, warm, intelligent and hard working. Trust your people and help them move towards a democracy - you have so much to gain by doing this.

[pwa]

Thanks to those who have given detailed and well reasoned explanations of why they think electronic shifting is worth having. I suppose there was a time when I liked the idea of having a bike with the swishest kit, but now my idea of a bike is one where stuff is simple and user fixable, with no need to worry too much about obsolescence. I ride a tourer with bar end shifters, having abandoned Ergo / STI a long time ago. I'm never in a race so it makes no difference to me that a gear change takes half a second longer. At least I have the gears I have chosen, not the ones I have to have because Mr. Shimano says so. My friction front lever will work with virtually any mech so I can have any chainset with any ring combo, and shifting is as easy as anything. Over a huge gear range but without big steps. And I love the fact that I can fix just about anything in the system. I don't think I'm being a luddite by not wanting electronic gear shifting. I have recognised when I have what I need, so I have stepped off the consumer treadmill. I'm not grumpy about others wanting and having stuff I don't, but I'm happy with what I have.

Manufacturers don't come up with much to interest me these days, but I'd like to see stuff you can fix if you need to. And less stuff that needs binning when it malfunctions. One piece of kit that made me look was a hub generator sold by Spa that enabled the user to service the bearings themselves, without having to dismantle the wheel. That is progress that interests me. Di2 would interest me if I thought that it might last 20 000 miles without an expensive component needing to be binned and replaced. I'm not getting the feeling that that would be the case.

[geomannie]

Thanks to those who have given detailed and well reasoned explanations of why they think electronic shifting is worth having. I suppose there was a time when I liked the idea of having a bike with the swishest kit, but now my idea of a bike is one where stuff is simple and user fixable, with no need to worry too much about obsolescence. I ride a tourer with bar end shifters, having abandoned Ergo / STI a long time ago. I'm never in a race so it makes no difference to me that a gear change takes half a second longer. At least I have the gears I have chosen, not the ones I have to have because Mr. Shimano says so. My friction front lever will work with virtually any mech so I can have any chainset with any ring combo, and shifting is as easy as anything. Over a huge gear range but without big steps. And I love the fact that I can fix just about anything in the system. I don't think I'm being a luddite by not wanting electronic gear shifting. I have recognised when I have what I need, so I have stepped off the consumer treadmill. I'm not grumpy about others wanting and having stuff I don't, but I'm happy with what I have.

You & me both!

I will just add that I am a volunteer mechanic at a local bike charity and I spend hours sorting out indexing issues on old bikes. I then ride home on bar-end friction shifters 'cause I can't be doing with indexing faff myself.

[rareposter]

Di2 would interest me if I thought that it might last 20 000 miles without an expensive component needing to be binned and replaced. I'm not getting the feeling that that would be the case.

There's no reason (barring crashes) that it should be any less durable than mechanical - in fact there are far fewer moving parts than mechanical so in theory, it should last a lot longer and it can also be much more sealed against the elements as there's no need to have cable access ports.

The STI unit is two small electrical switches, no different to a light switch or TV remote control. Compared to the cable pulleys and indexing clicks in a mechanical STI unit, there's far less in there.

The mechs have a tiny motor in them, no different to the motors in a car window mechanism but they're sealed units as well. There's really very little to go wrong.

Cassette and chainrings should arguably wear less than mechanical as the shifting is always better and crisper and cleaner and shifting under load is less of an issue.

[pwa]

Di2 would interest me if I thought that it might last 20 000 miles without an expensive component needing to be binned and replaced. I'm not getting the feeling that that would be the case.

There's no reason (barring crashes) that it should be any less durable than mechanical - in fact there are far fewer moving parts than mechanical so in theory, it should last a lot longer and it can also be much more sealed against the elements as there's no need to have cable access ports.

The STI unit is two small electrical switches, no different to a light switch or TV remote control. Compared to the cable pulleys and indexing clicks in a mechanical STI unit, there's far less in there.

The mechs have a tiny motor in them, no different to the motors in a car window mechanism but they're sealed units as well. There's really very little to go wrong.

Cassette and chainrings should arguably wear less than mechanical as the shifting is always better and crisper and cleaner and shifting under load is less of an issue.

Go on. I'm weakening!

To be fair, the reliability I have at present is down to me abandoning Ergo / STI years ago and using bar end levers instead. Most roadies won't do that. So they will compare the reliability of Di2 with STI levers, which I have found to be dire. I genuinely hope you are right and that Di2 turns out to be "fit and forget" in the best sense.

[Cugel]

Di2 would interest me if I thought that it might last 20 000 miles without an expensive component needing to be binned and replaced. I'm not getting the feeling that that would be the case.

There's no reason (barring crashes) that it should be any less durable than mechanical - in fact there are far fewer moving parts than mechanical so in theory, it should last a lot longer and it can also be much more sealed against the elements as there's no need to have cable access ports.

The STI unit is two small electrical switches, no different to a light switch or TV remote control. Compared to the cable pulleys and indexing clicks in a mechanical STI unit, there's far less in there.

The mechs have a tiny motor in them, no different to the motors in a car window mechanism but they're sealed units as well. There's really very little to go wrong.

Cassette and chainrings should arguably wear less than mechanical as the shifting is always better and crisper and cleaner and shifting under load is less of an issue.

Go on. I'm weakening!

To be fair, the reliability I have at present is down to me abandoning Ergo / STI years ago and using bar end levers instead. Most roadies won't do that. So they will compare the reliability of Di2 with STI levers, which I have found to be dire. I genuinely hope you are right and that Di2 turns out to be "fit and forget" in the best sense.

I'm a novice Di2 user so ..... . Nevertheless, I am looking for "advantages", naturally; still noticing the disadvantages too, though.

I've just fitted a different chain (stainless steel Connex) and big chainring (46 instead of a 50) so I've had to move the front mech and re-adjust. This is much easier to do with a Di2 mech than with a mechanical equivalent.

For a start, it will go down the frame mounting to be the right height for a 46 ring, which can't be done on any mechanical front mech I've had on road bikes with a direct mount to the frame, over the years.

Secondly, there's only one adjusment screw needs fiddlin' with - the outward throw limiter. In big chainring & small sprocket, this screw needs screwing so that the cage outeris 0.5 - 1,0mm away from the big chainring. Everything else auto-adjusts.

The front mech auto-trims as the back gearing is changed. No need for difficult to set-up trimming clicks at the lever. Although I can set up such trims and other adjustments successfully - even with a triple chainring, mech and STI lever, although it takes a good while and a lot of fiddlin' - I know that this is no easy task, especially for a novice.

(Incidentally, using a non-indexed friction lever of downtube or bar-end kind, is no easy thing for many novices to learn either).

************
Another perceived advantage is that the chain is always properly centred on the cogs; chain rubs are automatically avoided. For example, the rear mech won't allow either of the smallest two sprockets to be selected when the small ring is selected. The rear mech automatically moves to the third smallest sprocket, if in one of the two smaller sprockets, when you change from big ring to small ring. And semi of full-synchro settings can perform similar "perfect the gear ratio" style operations.

Such things, as you say, can be achieved "by hand" with non-indexed mechanical systems - but it's a skill that takes a lot of learning-by-practice; and we can still get it wrong. I recall the almost constant need, in group riding pre-1980-summick, to get the lad in front to trim his clattering rear mech as the chain threatened to climb or drop from it's poorly-selected sprocket.

*********
So some advantages, then. And if the Di2 is resilient enough for the mechs and levers to last 20,000 mile .... well, I might be dead before then! If not, I will moan, gripe, whine, complain and generally make every unhappy noise I know about "this new-fangled rubbish".

Cugel

[pwa]

....So some advantages, then. And if the Di2 is resilient enough for the mechs and levers to last 20,000 mile .... well, I might be dead before then! If not, I will moan, gripe, whine, complain and generally make every unhappy noise I know about "this new-fangled rubbish".

Cugel

I'm afraid you are now committed to giving us a 20 000 mile report, so either get those miles in a bit quicker or make sure you live a long time!

[cycle tramp]

Di2 would interest me if I thought that it might last 20 000 miles without an expensive component needing to be binned and replaced. I'm not getting the feeling that that would be the case.

There's no reason (barring crashes) that it should be any less durable than mechanical - in fact there are far fewer moving parts than mechanical so in theory, it should last a lot longer and it can also be much more sealed against the elements as there's no need to have cable access ports.

The STI unit is two small electrical switches, no different to a light switch or TV remote control. Compared to the cable pulleys and indexing clicks in a mechanical STI unit, there's far less in there.

While accepting that the electronic gear shifter itself may outlast a index mechanical gear shifter, the issue of derailleur slop may still occur...

..derailleur slop is where the pivots on the derailleur have worn to a point were the pivots have loosen to such an extent that the derailleur can no longer precisely move to the indexed gear selection due to wear.

Derailleur slop does not occur with friction gear shifters as the friction lever will just be moved to a greater degree as a result of this slop.

[PedallingSquares]

My Di2 is now 2 years old and work like new.Never had to touch it since initial set up.I've charged the battery twice and TBH that's just me as it was nowhwere near fully discharged.I run mine in full syncro-shift and it just works.Smooth,quiet,effortless.
For me it's now a must have.It just makes sense.I will only replace it with full wireless.Sometimes technology can be a bad thing.This is not the case with electronic shifting.

(I fitted it myself when I built the bike.All the internal routing was no more difficult than any internal routing.The only difference is it's fit and forget).
Someone mentioned 20,000 miles.I'm nowhere near that but a friend who rides 3-350miles a week and usually puts in around 15-18,000 miles per year is still riding his 3 year old Di2,2022 is year4 all he's done is chain/cassette/front ring changes.

[gxaustin]

I have never seen why I am supposed to want electronic shifting. What is the advantage for me? My cable shifting systems work fine and I can maintain them to keep them that way. I have never noticed pushing a lever being any effort. And anything with a battery needs monitoring for charge level, especially if you have a long ride coming up. Why would I want to introduce yet another battery into my life when I have nothing to gain from doing that? Except a bit more lightness in the wallet department. What am I missing?

Arthritis and other wear and tear that afflicts many of the old riders.
Why does it have to be an advantage to you? Nobody is asking you to buy it.

[pwa]

I have never seen why I am supposed to want electronic shifting. What is the advantage for me? My cable shifting systems work fine and I can maintain them to keep them that way. I have never noticed pushing a lever being any effort. And anything with a battery needs monitoring for charge level, especially if you have a long ride coming up. Why would I want to introduce yet another battery into my life when I have nothing to gain from doing that? Except a bit more lightness in the wallet department. What am I missing?

Arthritis and other wear and tear that afflicts many of the old riders.
Why does it have to be an advantage to you? Nobody is asking you to buy it.

Of course. And I did also say I don't mind other people wanting it. It just isn't on my own radar as an object of desire. When I asked "What am I missing?" I was inviting people to point out advantages I hadn't thought of. Which they did.
I do appreciate that people with arthritis may find it useful.