Can hi-vis clothing do harm?

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Cugel
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Re: Can hi-vis clothing do harm?

Post by Cugel »

Nearholmer wrote: 26 Jun 2022, 6:53pm What, he had to put on a blanket as well?!
I recall them yeller capes that acted as both a hi-viz and a sail, allowing the cyclist to either tack rapidly along the road or go for a detour into the field through the gate into which a rip-wind blew. Some would collect a small pond of water, obviating the need for a bidon on rainy days. Sometimes they came with a matching hat, which could cause passers-by to ask the cyclist if he had any mackerel or perhaps a codfish.

Some cyclists I know have a space blanket in their gubbins-bag as these can be handy for when one of the risk-takers takes a risk too far and has to wait, huddled by the roadside, for the ambulance - which now takes about 1.3 days to get there.

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Mike_Ayling
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Re: Can hi-vis clothing do harm?

Post by Mike_Ayling »

When I lived in London from 1968 to 1971 I had one of the yellow capes and matching hat and the blokes that I rode with who had black were impressed with the hi vis aspect although the term was unheard of at that time. When not in use it was rolled up and secured on the outside of my saddle bag giving a spot of yellow when it was not raining.
Now in Melbourne Oz orange is the colour for most outdoor workers but the police still stick to yellow with reflective stripes. (Day night vests)
I choose to wear hi viz and I have a yellow and an orange day night, AU$12.50 -or about five quid each. My previous one lasted about 15 years.

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ChrisP100
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Re: Can hi-vis clothing do harm?

Post by ChrisP100 »

In answer to the OP hi-viz can't do any harm.

Having said that an inattentive person will not see you even if you are lit up brighter than Liberace's Christmas tree.
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mjr
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Re: Can hi-vis clothing do harm?

Post by mjr »

ChrisP100 wrote: 29 Jun 2022, 3:17pm In answer to the OP hi-viz can't do any harm.
Please explain your reasoning: does it not lead to low contrast with yellow backgrounds? Does it not encourage motorists to look for hi-viz instead of for people, and to drive beyond the limits of what they can see clearly? Won't it eventually create an expectation that all worthy road users are wearing hi-viz?
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hoogerbooger
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Re: Can hi-vis clothing do harm?

Post by hoogerbooger »

Fertiliser, herbicide & red diesel is getting so expensive that East Anglian arable farmers won't be growing much oilseed rape ...may be.....so you may soon stand out in Hi Viz.

Not very relevant in Wales, main backdrop is green ( although the sheep are generally white .....except the cute black ones....that have to be careful crossing the road)
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drossall
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Re: SAFETY, Visibility

Post by drossall »

Tigerbiten wrote: 6 Aug 2021, 11:41amHi vis used to work well because it was rare, now it tends to blend into the background a bit as it's a lot more common
I think this early comment is a really good one. It's a major mistake just to think about "visibility". That's like "employability" - useful, but not the point in the end. The aim is to get a job, and the aim is to be seen. Both of those involve someone else doing the active bit. You don't, in the end, have control over that and, to stand out among the field, you're not only going to have to reach a certain standard, you're going to have to do more than everyone else - so as they do more, you'll have to up your game again and again.
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TrevA
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Re: Can hi-vis clothing do harm?

Post by TrevA »

Even though it’s high summer, I see quite a few people out riding, still wearing their long sleeved, flouro yellow hi-viz jerseys and in some cases, rain jackets. They must be sweltering.

I just wear a thin short sleeved cycling shirt with no vest underneath, in anything above 15 degrees.
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RickH
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Re: Can hi-vis clothing do harm?

Post by RickH »

My anecdotal story is that when I got my first hivis jacket, many moons ago, I rapidly dubbed it my cloak of invisibility. The reason being is that it seemed to me that I got far more drivers pulling out of side turnings while riding when I was wearing it compared to when I didn't have it on!

I've heard it said that people associate hivis with relatively static people, roadworks. etc., rather than someone on a bike who may be doing 20 to 30mph, maybe more on a decent downhill.

The other one is that wearing it can make things potentially more dangerous for others. An example I've given before - on night I was driving down a local road which has a stretch that is unlit & quite narrow. Ahead I could see a dog walker in a hivis/reflective jacket & the dog had a collar with flashing lights on. They were very obvious. As I proceeded I noticed a second dog walker, much closer to me, but with "normal" clothes on & an unilluminated dog. I was travelling at a fairly sedate pace - the limit is 20 with periodic speedbumps - so they were never in any danger from me, but some folk tend to do the accelerate-rapidly-then-brake-hard style of driving between the bumps.
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drossall
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Re: Can hi-vis clothing do harm?

Post by drossall »

I'm vaguely recalling someone arguing once that the lack of actual success of hi-vis is because drivers see you too early. Many cyclists have reported incidents where, as far as anyone can tell, the drivers clearly saw them, but then forgot/dismissed them from mind, and behaved as though they were not there anyway. So giving extra time for that to happen may not always be a good idea! On the same theme, there were stats around at one point, indicating that cyclists with lights are disproportionately likely to be involved in accidents at night, the suggestion being that cyclists without lights usually can be seen anyway, and annoy drivers, so guaranteeing that they won't be forgotten!

However, that's little more than speculation, and would in any case hardly be an argument for wearing clothing that will mean that you won't be seen at all. What I do take away from it is the point I made before - that visibility is a passive thing done by the potential victim, and seeing is an active thing done by other people entirely, so there's actually quite a lot of complex psychological stuff going on where common sense is not always helpful. (Yes, of course, in reality all of us are both potential victims trying to be visible, and road users trying to see others, both at the same time.)

In practice, I do try to wear things that will make me visible (and always to use lights) - and what you do in reality says a lot about what you believe! I've got one black cycling jersey that I only wear under others. On the other hand, popping into town, I like to be able to wear whatever normal clothing I have on already.

And have we done the really obvious point, that hi-vis only works in daytime, and you need reflective instead at night? They are very different, even if some garments combine both.
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Re: Can hi-vis clothing do harm?

Post by hoogerbooger »

I agree that the point is to be visible to traffic that could hurt you.....and that hi viz is only one part of the equation we must keep in mind all the time and act on....because we are the ones that get hurt. I can't agree that wearing black is ever a sensible part of that equation, whereas some sort of hi viz (I prefer orange) nearly, if not always is in day time.
( in my view)
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ChrisP100
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Re: Can hi-vis clothing do harm?

Post by ChrisP100 »

mjr wrote: 29 Jun 2022, 5:37pm
ChrisP100 wrote: 29 Jun 2022, 3:17pm In answer to the OP hi-viz can't do any harm.
Please explain your reasoning: does it not lead to low contrast with yellow backgrounds? Does it not encourage motorists to look for hi-viz instead of for people, and to drive beyond the limits of what they can see clearly? Won't it eventually create an expectation that all worthy road users are wearing hi-viz?
Hi-viz makes you stand out from the background in a lot of situations, but you should be equally visible to an attentive driver with or without it. An attentive and observant driver should see you no matter what you are wearing.

Whatever colours you a wearing at some point on your journey they will blend in with your surroundings. Lateral movement (across the drivers field of vision) is much more effective at alerting the driver to your presence than a laterally static high contrast silhouette which is only moving in distance.

Finally what you wear shouldn't denote whether you are a worthy road user or not in the same way that what you drive shouldn't.
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Re: Can hi-vis clothing do harm?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

TrevA wrote: 29 Jun 2022, 11:35pm Even though it’s high summer, I see quite a few people out riding, still wearing their long sleeved, flouro yellow hi-viz jerseys and in some cases, rain jackets. They must be sweltering.

I just wear a thin short sleeved cycling shirt with no vest underneath, in anything above 15 degrees.
Probably some of them are, but equally we all have different thermostats.
Psamathe
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Re: Can hi-vis clothing do harm?

Post by Psamathe »

RickH wrote: 30 Jun 2022, 1:03am ...
I've heard it said that people associate hivis with relatively static people, roadworks. etc., rather than someone on a bike who may be doing 20 to 30mph, maybe more on a decent downhill.
...
That is a good point and one I'd never considered. Other than plastered over Police/ambulance vehicles most of the time it is on pretty static things.

I'd always understood that one major issue is not one of driver's eye's detecting light from cyclist but their brain registering something. I've been taught when driving and you see a bike say "bike" in your mind" so that your brain registers the presence rather than the brain passing it to auto-pilot (I was taught it in the context of "motorbike"). Becoming associated with something static by an "autopilot" does not seem conducive to safety.

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djnotts
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Re: Can hi-vis clothing do harm?

Post by djnotts »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 30 Jun 2022, 10:54am
TrevA wrote: 29 Jun 2022, 11:35pm Even though it’s high summer, I see quite a few people out riding, still wearing their long sleeved, flouro yellow hi-viz jerseys and in some cases, rain jackets. They must be sweltering.

I just wear a thin short sleeved cycling shirt with no vest underneath, in anything above 15 degrees.
Probably some of them are, but equally we all have different thermostats.
Has to be a very hot day for England for me to wear less than 3 or 4 layers - and I don't swelter nor sweat. Recently been in S Portugal - most on beach in sleeveless vests at most. Me, t-shirt and sweat shirt. Almost warm enough to be comfortable.
Different thermostat, emphasised by side effect of cancer treatment I think.
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Re: Can hi-vis clothing do harm?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

djnotts wrote: 30 Jun 2022, 1:05pm
Bmblbzzz wrote: 30 Jun 2022, 10:54am
TrevA wrote: 29 Jun 2022, 11:35pm Even though it’s high summer, I see quite a few people out riding, still wearing their long sleeved, flouro yellow hi-viz jerseys and in some cases, rain jackets. They must be sweltering.

I just wear a thin short sleeved cycling shirt with no vest underneath, in anything above 15 degrees.
Probably some of them are, but equally we all have different thermostats.
Has to be a very hot day for England for me to wear less than 3 or 4 layers - and I don't swelter nor sweat. Recently been in S Portugal - most on beach in sleeveless vests at most. Me, t-shirt and sweat shirt. Almost warm enough to be comfortable.
Different thermostat, emphasised by side effect of cancer treatment I think.
Curiously, I know one or two people who have found that cancer treatment left them less susceptible to cold. I hope your treatment was successful.
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