Can hi-vis clothing do harm?

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
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PFO
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Joined: 5 Aug 2021, 7:25pm

SAFETY, Visibility

Post by PFO »

First CTC membership 50+ years ago, prior to purchase of first car. Now, infirmity and longer distances normal in rural Scotland leads to more car use without ever ceasing to be aware of bikes and to use the bike near home. Reviews and cycling commentary are always enjoyable to read. I would however like to see more concentration on everyone being easily able to see and avoid cyclists. We live on the NCN Route 1, part of the 'old' LEJOG route. Even in cooler months roads present big numbers of cyclists and while wife and I make big efforts wear bright, visible, clothing it is very noticeable how well-dressed but invisible so many cyclists are.

Small roads with tight curves do not always allow drivers much advance notice of cyclists ahead. Drivers who are cyclists know to look way out ahead for signs of 'other' road users. Really nice dark cycling clothing does not help.

Please, when writing, formulate believable advice about needing to wear visibility when cycling.
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RickH
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Re: SAFETY, Visibility

Post by RickH »

PFO wrote: 5 Aug 2021, 8:01pm... it is very noticeable how well-dressed but invisible so many cyclists are.
Funny that invisible cyclists are so noticeable! :twisted:

Purely anecdotal, but my personal experience when I got my first fluo yellow jacket (probably in the 80s, possibly early 90s) I quickly dubbed it my cloak of invisibility as I seemed to get far more cars pulling out of side roads as I approached, as if I wasn't there, than when not wearing it.

Because I'm usually travelling some distance when on my bike, as we live a bit out in the sticks, I will usually opt for cycling gear for riding & change if I seem it necessary to appear "normal".

However, more recently, I've been accompanying someone doing a regular but very short trip where I've not bothered.

I did note on one particular occasion when I was wearing navy long trousers & a black jacket (my best off-the bike waterproof) that I had cars stopping to let me a cross junctions where I was crossing a "main" road from one side street to another. So I obviously was far from invisible.
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TrevA
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Re: SAFETY, Visibility

Post by TrevA »

I’m not sure wearing fluorescent yellow in high summer is the best strategy. Riding next to a field of rapeseed or golden wheat you stand out better in red, blue or a darker colour. A lot of my bike clothing is black and I don’t have any problems with drivers seeing me. I use a combined camera and rear light to provide visibility from the rear.
Last edited by TrevA on 6 Aug 2021, 11:02am, edited 1 time in total.
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De Sisti
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Re: SAFETY, Visibility

Post by De Sisti »

Drivers will see cyclists, but (generally) insist of getting past those on two wheels, otherwise
they'd be crashing into the back wheel of all bikes they encounter on the roads.
Jdsk
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Re: SAFETY, Visibility

Post by Jdsk »

"All"?

Nearly all of the time nearly all road users, no matter how incompetent or malicious, aren't causing collisions or injuries. Improvement will come from preventing or avoiding the rare occasions when they do.

RickH wrote: 6 Aug 2021, 10:12am Funny that invisible cyclists are so noticeable!
It's perfectly reasonable that someone interested in the subject will notice less visible road users. It doesn't mean that they aren't more vulnerable in those rare but dangerous moments where imminent harm can be avoided.

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mattsccm
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Re: SAFETY, Visibility

Post by mattsccm »

OP.
You will notice that you have opened a can off worms here.
Many off us believe that hi vis isn't generally needed. Due care and attention from other road users is. After all does one preach the need for pedestrians to use high vis?
Of course there is reasonable behaviour and you have to give the motorist a chance. For example I would not walk the gutter of an unlit fast A road in the dark dressed in black with my face away from the oncoming traffic. We can't expect miracles. However I would expect a driver to able to see something in the carridgeway at the level of their visiblity in day light, and if that is very restricted, such as on narrow country lanes, to drive within the limits of their vision and ability to stop.
We all have our own levels of assessemnt of percived risk in this respect in the same way that we all have our own views on helmets, lights etc.
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kylecycler
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Re: SAFETY, Visibility

Post by kylecycler »

For sure you should be as visible as possible, but bear in mind that an awful lot of collisions are caused by the driver not seeing the cyclist at all - not just well enough; at all, either because the cyclist is effectively obscured, for example by the vehicle's 'A' pillar(s) - the pillar between the windscreen and the door(s) - another vehicle, or whatever; either that or the driver hasn't taken long enough to look or not looked carefully enough; and whether the cyclist is wearing hi-vis and/or is lit up like a Christmas tree in these situations doesn't necessarily make a blind bit of difference.

That's absolutely not to say you shouldn't make yourself highly visible - you certainly should, don't think there's any doubt about that - and as PFO suggests, some cyclists don't make enough effort and/or aren't aware of the danger of not doing so - just that you shouldn't assume that that means you will be seen.

As for whose fault it is if the driver doesn't see you, of course it's the driver's fault, or at the very least their responsibility, but that doesn't help to prevent the collision - that's the cyclist's responsibility, otherwise they're liable to be injured or killed. And that's not 'victim blaming' either, it's just being realistic.

You can't avoid every collision, obviously, but you can avoid an awful lot of those that happen. Not your fault if you don't, of course - that's victim blaming - but if you don't, it's you who's going to suffer. You just have to take responsibility for your own safety and try your best.
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Tigerbiten
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Re: SAFETY, Visibility

Post by Tigerbiten »

The easy way to get a drivers attention is to look different from normal.
"What is that" works well, I know because I ride a bent trike.
Hi vis used to work well because it was rare, now it tends to blend into the background a bit as it's a lot more common,
But flashing bike lights still stand out in a sea of car DRL.
But nothing works if the driver isn't paying attention doesn't even "see" you.

Luck .......... :D
Stevek76
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Re: SAFETY, Visibility

Post by Stevek76 »

With my driving hat on I'd recommend at least one solid light even if you want to run flashing ones.

I've seen what I thought were unlit cyclists when looking left/right at junctions that have turned out to actually be lit but the light was between flashes on the first check in that direction.


Fluorescent high vis is of relatively limited value in my view, as others have mentioned you need to be careful of the colour, yellow is actually pretty good camouflage on a sunny spring or summer day in the countryside, while in urban areas orange can easily get lost in a sea of traffic cones. Most studies seem to simply focus and report on how early/far away people were seen, which, as mentioned misses the point that collisions tend to happen when there's a failure to look/see at all. Fluorescent colours stand out most in overcast or end/start of day conditions. Note that they do no better than a regular yellow/orange t shirt at night as car headlights have no UV.

Some retroreflective bits can help but note they are limited by working off other people's lights. Retroreflective does nothing vs a driver waiting to pull out at a side road or roundabout.

Between a good set of lights and the incidental reflective bits that tend to exist on bikes* & panniers as standard I've never really seem the need to stick even more on.

*There is the interesting point here about amber pedal reflectors which are actually legally required!
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mattheus
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Re: SAFETY, Visibility

Post by mattheus »

PFO wrote: 5 Aug 2021, 8:01pm I would however like to see more concentration on everyone being easily able to see and avoid cyclists.
Just look where you're going.

And tell your friends-n-family to do the same.
tatanab
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Re: SAFETY, Visibility

Post by tatanab »

PFO wrote: 5 Aug 2021, 8:01pmI would however like to see more concentration on everyone being easily able to see and avoid cyclists.
Exactly. People (drivers) need to be easily able to see. Please clean windscreens inside and out - the dust on the inside makes a lot of difference. In winter clean every window fully of ice/snow etc. Then you might be able to see more easily. Clean your spectacles too.

n.b. I am being a bit pedantic here in taking the OP's words as they are written rather than as they are undoubtedly meant, and I mean it light-heartedly.
Tim Holman
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Re: SAFETY, Visibility

Post by Tim Holman »

The thing is: YOU think that YOU are entirely visible whatever kit you wear. This is unfortunately not so. Others do not see you on a bike, even when they know you well, know that you are a cyclist and that you are out and about in all weathers and at all times of the day or night. Even when you wear so-called hi-viz clothing you may find that hi-viz is now the new "Invisible". Criminals and shysters don HI-Viz in order that the clothing is seen rather than the identity of the wearer. We all tune out the Hi-Viz of roadworkers, delivery personnel, surveyors and those similarly clad people we do see but assess as unimportant. Cyclists are also unimportant, generally, except to awake, aware and able roadusers who are on the lookout for hazards, signs and other vehicles. Having said all that I avoid wearing all black kit. When it is unavoidable I team it with a Hi-Viz waistcoat and then I feel visible which is what matters, I suppose,
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Syd
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Re: SAFETY, Visibility

Post by Syd »

Mrs Syd was hit from behind by a driver two days ago.

From video the driver is seen following her out of the car park, leaving her plenty of room, and stopping behind her at the junction, where both were turning right.

Mrs Syd crossed the westbound lanes and was stationary in the central sanctuary waiting on a gap in eastbound traffic to continue on her way.

It was as this point the driver obviously forgot she was there, and was looking elsewhere, as he crossed into the central sanctuary himself and struck her.

She was appropriately visible for the conditions and time of day.

You are only visible if someone is looking at you, and paying attention.
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al_yrpal
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Re: SAFETY, Visibility

Post by al_yrpal »

I often groan when I see folk on bikes dressed from head to toe in black. They blend in perfectly against backgrounds of hedges or trees, its just so unecessary.
SMIDSY.... In some countries some form of high vis is compulsary. But here, fashion rules....Black looks cool and hides fat.

Al
Reuse, recycle, thus do your bit to save the planet.... Get stuff at auctions, Dump, Charity Shops, Facebook Marketplace, Ebay, Car Boots. Choose an Old House, and a Banger ..... And cycle as often as you can......
Mike Sales
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Re: SAFETY, Visibility

Post by Mike Sales »

I thought my feet must have fallen off.
Then I remembered I was wearing black socks.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
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