Can hi-vis clothing do harm?

[pwa]

I don't wear just hi-viz on the bike, but I do only have tops that are easy to see. Yellow, orange and white, though I would consider anything bright. These days my cycling gear is more MTBish in style, with baggy shorts (hiding a padded undergarment) and tee-shirt style tops, so I look like a geriatric reverting back to his youth. But it's all comfy and casual, which is how I am.

[Cugel]

somehow come to cause the zeitgeist to expect cyclists to take far more "safety precautions" than others in similar potentially harmful situations.

I’m not totally convinced that’s the case.

Looking only at roads, the other modes of transport on roads are subject to a lot of safety precautions.

For people walking, the biggest safety precaution is the provision of a dedicated and semi-segregated space, the pavement, and in busy places pedestrian safety is aided by things like zebra crossings, and speed restrictions on vehicles.

For people driving, the safety precautions that have evolved since c1900 are almost too numerous to list: competence licensing for drivers; speed limits; numerous warning/advisory signs; road markings; traffic lights; segregated routes for high-speed driving; annual basic fitness for use check of the vehicle (MOT); crash-survival features in the vehicle, including seat-belts; electronic assist systems ………

On a bike on most roads I’m still in pretty much the same position as the first bloke who rode a “safety bicycle” in terms of safety features, save possibly that the brakes and lights are a bit better, but the bad news is that the environment on the road in most places is several times more “cyclist unfriendly” than it was in 1900 (except probably for the road surface).

Big difference here: cars are the main thing on the roads killing people. Pedestrians are not a danger to each other, cyclists are not dangerous on any meaningful statistical level.

So it's pretty reasonable to have speed limits, licensing, vehicle inspections etc ...

This is not philosophy. Nor dogma.

In addition .....

Many of the safety things mentioned by others for use in cars, by pedestrians and in the garden are effective. There is little evidence to show that hi-viz and cycling helmets are effective in anything but very limited circumstances. A cycling helmet will do nothing for you in a crash with a car (and very little in any other circumstance). Hi-viz clothing may or may not get the attention of an inattentive driver; and may or may not actually be highly visible in different environments.

Personally I want to get the attention of otherwise inattentive drivers. As a driver myself, I find the more powerful versions of the flashing bike lights the most likely to get attention - much more than will hi-viz clothing which may not be hi-viz in many circumstances and doesn't seem to get the attention of many drivers even when they see it.

I have the very bright flashing lights on all my bikes, then. But I don't expect them to get the attention of the seriously inattentive drivers (on their phones or staring at their satnavs). I hope it'll get the attention of those merely day-dreaming as they stare out from their windscreens, on automatic pilot.

As to clothing, well .... I like white & red best as this seems to be the most visible in many different kinds of backgrounds and lighting conditions. I always wear a white & red cycling cap, for instance, as this is often very noticeable over the hedge tops of the lanes, whereas many helmets blend in (unless they're white, of course). Those caps also shade your peepers from the bright low sun, which helmets generally don't.

*****
I'm all for getting noticed more on the road. And also keen on avoiding harm, including harm to my head. But I'm also keen to use what works and not use what doesn't, especially if someone is trying to get me to buy something.

Cugel

[drossall]

I think if a careless driver has knocked you off because they didn't notice you, they will find it a lot more comfortable coming up with a narrative that has you at fault if your clothing is subdued in colour. When they are telling the story to friends and family the presence of black clothing (top and bottom) will be all that is needed to cast you as the villain. Blaming higher visibility clothing will take more of an effort. Even if I thought brighter clothing didn't actually reduce risk, I'd still wear it just to remove that excuse.

I understand that argument, and I do in practice wear hi-vis a lot of the time. But one of the big worries about safety measures is the way that they can cause people to lose sight of the main aim, which is not about winning compensation claims! I'm not focused on being able to defend my actions in a court case; I'm trying to avoid being in accidents in the first place. So, if, as some have argued above, I conclude that hi-vis material won't be very visible because I'm riding amongst fields of rape, then I'm not going to wear it just so I can win the court case! I've seen a similar problem where people were so focused on getting bigger and better magic hats that they forgot about taking measures to prevent riders from falling off in the first place.

[pwa]

....As to clothing, well .... I like white & red best as this seems to be the most visible in many different kinds of backgrounds and lighting conditions. I always wear a white & red cycling cap, for instance, as this is often very noticeable over the hedge tops of the lanes, whereas many helmets blend in (unless they're white, of course). Those caps also shade your peepers from the bright low sun, which helmets generally don't.

*****
I'm all for getting noticed more on the road. And also keen on avoiding harm, including harm to my head. But I'm also keen to use what works and not use what doesn't, especially if someone is trying to get me to buy something.

Cugel

I'm not so sure about darker shades of red. As a red/green colourblind person I sometimes find red merges with a green background (such as a hedge). For me it is a camouflage colour.

[Jdsk]

Many of the safety things mentioned by others for use in cars, by pedestrians and in the garden are effective. There is little evidence to show that hi-viz and cycling helmets are effective in anything but very limited circumstances.

There's a randomised controlled trial for jackets.

Jonathan

[pwa]

I think if a careless driver has knocked you off because they didn't notice you, they will find it a lot more comfortable coming up with a narrative that has you at fault if your clothing is subdued in colour. When they are telling the story to friends and family the presence of black clothing (top and bottom) will be all that is needed to cast you as the villain. Blaming higher visibility clothing will take more of an effort. Even if I thought brighter clothing didn't actually reduce risk, I'd still wear it just to remove that excuse.

I understand that argument, and I do in practice wear hi-vis a lot of the time. But one of the big worries about safety measures is the way that they can cause people to lose sight of the main aim, which is not about winning compensation claims! I'm not focused on being able to defend my actions in a court case; I'm trying to avoid being in accidents in the first place. So, if, as some have argued above, I conclude that hi-vis material won't be very visible because I'm riding amongst fields of rape, then I'm not going to wear it just so I can win the court case! I've seen a similar problem where people were so focused on getting bigger and better magic hats that they forgot about taking measures to prevent riders from falling off in the first place.

We have rapeseed fields around here but they have green hedges around them so that, in practice, for the three weeks or so of the year that they are vibrant yellow you are very unlikely to have the flowers as your immediate backdrop. Unless you are actually in the field. I know a bloke who rides through this field sometimes https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4343865 ... 4?hl=en-GB

But I agree that clothing choice will not in itself remove all danger. And there are other things that could make a bigger difference, such as folk watching where they are going.

[Nearholmer]

As a driver myself, I find the more powerful versions of the flashing bike lights the most likely to get attention - much more than will hi-viz clothing

I’ll agree with you on that for a second time.

Certainly if I was asked to choose between the two, I’d go for the flashing lights, but since I never have been, I’ll have both.

[Psamathe]

...
We have rapeseed fields around here but they have green hedges around them so that, in practice, for the three weeks or so of the year that they are vibrant yellow you are very unlikely to have the flowers as your immediate backdrop. Unless you are actually in the field. I know a bloke who rides through this field sometimes ....

Not many hedges between road and rapeseed round me. And even at the moment crops have gone golden (together with the earlier "grass" crops) and Hi-Viz yellow still doesn't stand out well against a golden background.

I wish we had more hedges (better for wildlife, etc.) but they take field space ...

Ian

[Psamathe]

...
I'm not so sure about darker shades of red. As a red/green colourblind person I sometimes find red merges with a green background (such as a hedge). For me it is a camouflage colour.

Out of interest, does is the visibility of the orange hi-vis reduced due to your colour-blindness?

Ian

[Jdsk]

As a driver myself, I find the more powerful versions of the flashing bike lights the most likely to get attention - much more than will hi-viz clothing

I’ll agree with you on that for a second time.

Certainly if I was asked to choose between the two, I’d go for the flashing lights, but since I never have been, I’ll have both.

There is some quantitative evidence on the comparative effects. But as you say it's possible to use both.

Jonathan

[tatanab]

As a driver myself, I find the more powerful versions of the flashing bike lights the most likely to get attention - much more than will hi-viz clothing

The problem there is that a rider then needs two sets of lights. One hyper bright for day use and another sociable one for use on evening group rides, or even riding on your own at night.

[pwa]

...
We have rapeseed fields around here but they have green hedges around them so that, in practice, for the three weeks or so of the year that they are vibrant yellow you are very unlikely to have the flowers as your immediate backdrop. Unless you are actually in the field. I know a bloke who rides through this field sometimes ....

Not many hedges between road and rapeseed round me. And even at the moment crops have gone golden (together with the earlier "grass" crops) and Hi-Viz yellow still doesn't stand out well against a golden background.

I wish we had more hedges (better for wildlife, etc.) but they take field space ...

Ian

Hedges are the norm around here. We have a few farms locally that often grow rapeseed, but all have hedges between the fields and the roads. Which region do you live in, if you don't mind me asking.

[Psamathe]

As a driver myself, I find the more powerful versions of the flashing bike lights the most likely to get attention - much more than will hi-viz clothing

The problem there is that a rider then needs two sets of lights. One hyper bright for day use and another sociable one for use on evening group rides, or even riding on your own at night.

My own lights (Lezyne) have a wide range of modes, vey bright flash for daytime use (with long battery life as flashes may be bright but also brief) plus modes with continuous light of various "sociable" illumination levels. Same for both front and back lights. However, they are more expensive than some but not top of the Lezyne range.

Ian

[pwa]

...
I'm not so sure about darker shades of red. As a red/green colourblind person I sometimes find red merges with a green background (such as a hedge). For me it is a camouflage colour.

Out of interest, does is the visibility of the orange hi-vis reduced due to your colour-blindness?

Ian

I don't think so, but to be really sure I'd have to get someone else to wear it in various conditions so that I could see. The colour-blindness is a curious thing. Seen alone, I can distinguish any colour. It is red against green, in certain light conditions, where the distinction between one and the other becomes a bit iffy. The orange top is a bit vibrant, so I'd not anticipate a problem. A subtler orange would be more likely to present a problem.

[Cugel]

As a driver myself, I find the more powerful versions of the flashing bike lights the most likely to get attention - much more than will hi-viz clothing

The problem there is that a rider then needs two sets of lights. One hyper bright for day use and another sociable one for use on evening group rides, or even riding on your own at night.

My own lights (Lezyne) have a wide range of modes, vey bright flash for daytime use (with long battery life as flashes may be bright but also brief) plus modes with continuous light of various "sociable" illumination levels. Same for both front and back lights. However, they are more expensive than some but not top of the Lezyne range.

Ian

Ditto, although I also have sets of Aldi lights very similar to the Lezyne that cost about 1/3rd as much and are both brighter and replete with more modes, including the less glary modes.

Cugel