Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

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toontra
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Joined: 21 Dec 2007, 11:01am
Location: London

Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by toontra »

Bonefishblues wrote: 27 Jun 2022, 9:32pm
toontra wrote: 27 Jun 2022, 9:10pm https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/lear ... test-fail/
You won’t get a minor for holding up the flow of traffic if you miss the chance once, or even twice. But be aware if you miss three opportunities to safely pull out then you will likely be issued with a major.
The drivers I'm referring to missed opportunities to overtake countless times - i.e. major fail

I'm talking about roads on which a tractor with trailer going at 15mph could pass safely :wink:
Yes, minors adding up to a major because a pattern emerges - but not an instant fail, which is why I piped up when you said it.
But being pedantic, it could be just the one incident of exactly the type I'm describing - i.e. failing to safely overtake (in my case a bike) several times along a stretch of road when there was opportunity to do so.
Bonefishblues
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Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Bonefishblues »

toontra wrote: 27 Jun 2022, 9:41pm
Bonefishblues wrote: 27 Jun 2022, 9:32pm
toontra wrote: 27 Jun 2022, 9:10pm https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/lear ... test-fail/



The drivers I'm referring to missed opportunities to overtake countless times - i.e. major fail

I'm talking about roads on which a tractor with trailer going at 15mph could pass safely :wink:
Yes, minors adding up to a major because a pattern emerges - but not an instant fail, which is why I piped up when you said it.
But being pedantic, it could be just the one incident of exactly the type I'm describing - i.e. failing to safely overtake (in my case a bike) several times along a stretch of road when there was opportunity to do so.
That's multiple incidents when different opportunities were missed, obviously.

Look I'm in broad agreement with your proposition, and I thought I quietly corrected something when you overspoke, but if you want to go full pedant that's fine.
fastpedaller
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Location: Norfolk

Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by fastpedaller »

Here on our Norfolk lanes I've encountered the cautious driver who has ample opportunity and room to overtake for about 1/2 a mile but doesn't take it, only to then (I guess becoming impatient) overtake on a bend or as the road narrows :roll:
The other thing I encounter when driving my car is the drivers coming the other way who clearly don't know the width of their cars, and dive off the road towards the verge leaving at least a cars width between us as we pass :roll:
Then there are the drivers coming the other way when I'm riding my bike..... they don't even slow and miss me by about 18 inches - makes me wonder sometimes if they even see me :shock:
Some drivers are great though, and a couple yesterday stopped to ensure my safety as I approached - they get a 'happy wave' :D
Pete Owens
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Pete Owens »

toontra wrote: 27 Jun 2022, 9:10pm https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/lear ... test-fail/
You won’t get a minor for holding up the flow of traffic if you miss the chance once, or even twice. But be aware if you miss three opportunities to safely pull out then you will likely be issued with a major.
The drivers I'm referring to missed opportunities to overtake countless times - i.e. major fail
Nope - pulling out and overtaking are very very different things.
You fail to pull out and you are stationary - blocking the road. If you fail to overtake you are still making progress.

And the failing to pull out was always what the failing to make progress thing was about - though the urban myth developed that people could fail their test for not driving right up to the speed limit.
Pete Owens
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Pete Owens »

I don't think what we are seeing is examples of drivers being too cautious - it is just that since the West Midlands Police started to act on close passes that drivers have started to overtake properly and we are taking time to get used to it. And we really shouldn't worry about holding up traffic. For a driver on a single carriageway road the normal state of affairs is to be following a slower vehicle in front. So what if it takes half a mile to find a safe opportunity to overtake a cyclist - they will soon catch up with the next obstruction down the road.
ChrisP100
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by ChrisP100 »

toontra wrote: 27 Jun 2022, 7:25pm Spent a couple of weeks in the wonderful Angus glens with fantastic scenery and generally low traffic. I's cycled up there from London (as I do every year) without incident using all sorts of roads from dual carriageways to single-track lanes.

One thing that occured in rural Scotland that never happens on London - I'd hear a car approaching (and see it on my Garmin Varia) but it wouldn't overtake, even when the road was clear and there was plenty of space. It would hover somewhere close behind waiting for a clear view of several hundred yards of straight, flat road - far far longer that necessary to make a safe overtake.

This in turn would lead to other cars backing up and a queue forming. I would then have to pull over in a suitable space and wait for them to pass. One one occasion the offending car wouldn't pass even when I'd pulled over on clear road and I had to wave my arm to indicate what was required!

I actually get quite stressed when I get the sense I'm holding up cars, as those further back in the queue may well be getting irritable and more likely to make a close pass when they get to me.

Agreed the cautious overtaker isn't as big a problem as a close, fast overtaker, but it's a problem none the less. I can only assume these drivers are not confident of their driving ability or simply not used to seeing and overtaking cycles.
I have experienced similar, and whilst I don't worry too much about the overly cautious driver. It is the drivers behind them who I worry about as they may be getting frustrated and could end up doing something stupid and dangerous as a result.
Stradageek
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Stradageek »

Twice in the last couple of weeks I've been overtaken on a blind bend by a learner driver + instructor, so clearly there is confusion amongst even the 'professionals'.

Thread drift... why do the drivers that have to brake and swerve to avoid oncoming motorists overtaking cyclists NEVER complain?

They all seem to have an expression on their faces that says 'well I'd have done that too' :x
ChrisP100
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by ChrisP100 »

Stradageek wrote: 28 Jun 2022, 8:28am Thread drift... why do the drivers that have to brake and swerve to avoid oncoming motorists overtaking cyclists NEVER complain?
In general an overtake where you need to brake straight after is a dangerous and usually pointless overtake.
Pebble
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Pebble »

ChrisP100 wrote: 28 Jun 2022, 8:19am I have experienced similar, and whilst I don't worry too much about the overly cautious driver. It is the drivers behind them who I worry about as they may be getting frustrated and could end up doing something stupid and dangerous as a result.
They will undoubtedly be getting frustrated at you being a cyclist even if the more cautious driver was not there. It is not the fault of someone being careful that some other driver is behaving like a moron. They're going to get annoyed at cyclists no matter what.

Pete Owens wrote: 28 Jun 2022, 1:23am I don't think what we are seeing is examples of drivers being too cautious - it is just that since the West Midlands Police started to act on close passes that drivers have started to overtake properly and we are taking time to get used to it. And we really shouldn't worry about holding up traffic. For a driver on a single carriageway road the normal state of affairs is to be following a slower vehicle in front. So what if it takes half a mile to find a safe opportunity to overtake a cyclist - they will soon catch up with the next obstruction down the road.

Agreed;
I also think the recent well publicised changes to the highway code have made some drivers more careful around vulnerable road users, I do think some drivers are being more careful and I thank them for that.
Not that this has improved the cycling experience, just like the new 20 mph zones, it is only the good thoughtful careful drivers that were never a danger to us in the first place who are driving slower and giving wider overtakes. - The nutters who hate our very existence who drive as fast as they can whilst playing with their mobile phones are yet to change their spots.
Jdsk
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Jdsk »

Stradageek wrote: 28 Jun 2022, 8:28amThread drift... why do the drivers that have to brake and swerve to avoid oncoming motorists overtaking cyclists NEVER complain?

They all seem to have an expression on their faces that says 'well I'd have done that too'
In that sort of situation I can't usually tell what other road users are thinking or feeling.

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Jdsk »

thirdcrank wrote: 27 Jun 2022, 9:05pm It's an embarrassingly long time since I passed my driving tests. I've just searched online and I cannot find a list of specific faults. IIRC, BITD it was called something like "failing to make progress." Can anybody point to current official info?
The nearest I've found is:

"Carrying out driving tests: examiner guidance":
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/guidance-fo ... t-for-cars

includes:

1.07 Definition of marking on forms DL25

20.Progress:
• appropriate speed: driving too slowly for road and traffic conditions.
• undue hesitation: being over cautious by stopping or waiting when it is safe and normal to proceed.


Jonathan
Bonefishblues
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Bonefishblues »

Jdsk wrote: 28 Jun 2022, 9:10am
thirdcrank wrote: 27 Jun 2022, 9:05pm It's an embarrassingly long time since I passed my driving tests. I've just searched online and I cannot find a list of specific faults. IIRC, BITD it was called something like "failing to make progress." Can anybody point to current official info?
The nearest I've found is:

"Carrying out driving tests: examiner guidance":
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/guidance-fo ... t-for-cars

includes:

1.07 Definition of marking on forms DL25

20.Progress:
• appropriate speed: driving too slowly for road and traffic conditions.
• undue hesitation: being over cautious by stopping or waiting when it is safe and normal to proceed.


Jonathan
One of the Examiners in Oxford bitd was well-known for coming back to the Test Centre on the Ring Road dual carriageway and looking for people to make sufficiently speedy progress. I made sure I did a nice steady 65, which was the fastest I'd ever driven at that point :D
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Jdsk »

In the days when pulling out and overtaking was much more *common there was an aphorism along the lines of it being the second car that caused the queue. Still comes in useful on occasion.

Jonathan

* As were deaths and injuries on our roads.
thirdcrank
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Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by thirdcrank »

Pete Owens wrote: 28 Jun 2022, 1:23am I don't think what we are seeing is examples of drivers being too cautious - it is just that since the West Midlands Police started to act on close passes that drivers have started to overtake properly and we are taking time to get used to it. And we really shouldn't worry about holding up traffic. For a driver on a single carriageway road the normal state of affairs is to be following a slower vehicle in front. So what if it takes half a mile to find a safe opportunity to overtake a cyclist - they will soon catch up with the next obstruction down the road.
IMO this goes much wider than the WMP initiative. Plenty of riders regard the notorious image illustrating the relevant rule in the HC with the driver shown overtaking in the next lane as having greater authority than the Ten Commandments and we do hear boasts about how some riders punish transgressors - IIRC one member on here felt entitled to kick a passing car if it was within kicking range. At the official level, there's been a lot of publicity eg every so often, the extension of fixed penalties to "due care" is relaunched and close passing is often the example given. All that must be having some effect on drivers' attitudes

On the specific matter of WMP and Operation Close Pass, on one thread when somebody (Bez?) was waxing lyrical, I asked about evaluation. The WMP officers own evaluation of the initiative was to list the inputs ie X number of drivers advised, Y number of drivers given a ticket etc. Plus, a list of results which would inevitably follow active street policing of the type arrested 3 disqualified drivers, executed 7 warrants and detected 9 bald tyres ie nothing directly to do with close passing. IIRC, at that time my request for anecdotal evidence from riders in the West Mids drew a blank so if this is evidence that Operation Close Pass is working, that's three resounding cheers from me
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Cugel
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Cugel »

Jdsk wrote: 28 Jun 2022, 9:05am
In that sort of situation I can't usually tell what other road users are thinking or feeling.

Jonathan
Ah ha! If that is the case, you have failed to develop the full cyclist's 6th sense, which is in fact a large collection of abilities to interpret the mental states of other road users from a plethora of outward gestures, facial expressions and other (often more unambiguous) signs they make at you. Myself, I have a mental library of car-twitches, car-decorations and similar stuff that can often be used in predicting likely behaviours in various scenarios.

Seriously, it's surprising how one can develop a predictive ability based on how a driver, pedestrian or other cyclist moves and generally conducts their self-controlling behaviours. Facial expressions, too, can impart an enormous amount of information about possibilities and probabilities that may came about because of the mental state they indicate. We can't help it. It's a basic human mode of communication. And interpreting such stuff is a basic human survival skill. It's a very difficult thing to adopt a "poker face" or other cover of one's likely conduct in the next instant or few.

Of course, you have to notice this stuff and bank up the associations between car-conduct et al, as well as gesture and/or facial expression, with subsequent actions and events. This is called "having and recalling experiences with other humans". :-)

Mind, some have trouble doing this, for all sorts of nature and/or nurture reasons. I know folk who are oblivious to any form of empathy; and others who just don't care.

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
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