Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

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Biospace
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Biospace »

In general people learn to drive once they've passed their driving test, to varying degrees. There are a lots who are barely good enough to drive even when things are simple or what they're used to.

In urban or suburban areas most driving decisions are made for people either by the trail of traffic in front or on the rare occasion roads are quiet, by multiple road signs, markings and lights warning, advising and enforcing. Their concentration may well be almost entirely centred on these things, rather than controlling a vehicle safely.

The unknown, 'open' road without many instructions can be very challenging indeed for those who don't learn much beyond their test, only made worse by some with barely higher abilities jostling on their tail, unable to overtake. The English do seem to have forgotten how to overtake well, probably because of our small, crowded roads.

Phil Fouracre wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 11:47am Cycling along an open, reasonably wide straight country road, no other traffic in sight, car followed me for the best part of half a mile, then overtook as we approached a bend! Now, not so worried about the road safety issue, more, why were they doing it? The longer it went on the more disconcerting it was.
It does seem some struggle to process what's happening ahead when approaching anything which isn't travelling at their speed, as described above. Many are as inept at overtaking slow motorists, actually firightened of doing so.
simonhill wrote: 29 Jun 2022, 8:29am You often have the hesitant one behind you for unnecessary ages. Then once passed, all the other cars whizz past, creating more danger than usual due to frustration, etc.
Unintended consequence.
Sometimes you can feel the high blood pressure of those in a long queue which has developed behind one hesitant driver. I've had more than one driver who tries to take out his frustration by passing dangerously close. I'm usually aware of this in the mirror, so can minimise the risks.


I've noticed extra care and attention taken by overtaking vehicles since the news of the driver who was fined for passing too close and the revised HC, at some point this should enter drivers' subconcious and some of the longer queues behind cyclists I'm seeing at the moment will subside, hopefully without resorting to the close passes of the past. Minis can be lethal when driven by someone more concerned with chatting on the phone and what makeup to wear, but it's white VW Golfs and Seats I look out for - they do seem to be unduly careless.
ChrisP100
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by ChrisP100 »

There is one point on my commute where I will actively encourage drivers to overtake me. If anyone knows it, it is just prior to the T-junctition before turning up the hill at the start of the Full Michaelgate climb in Lincoln.

I regularly get cars hanging off my bumper there, and if they stay behind me and turn left to follow me up the hill it usually results in a dangerous overtake further up the hill.

I normally end up pulling well over to the left just before the junction and slow to wave them past. So much safer than risking the inevitable dangerous overtake.
Bik3 Rid3r
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Bik3 Rid3r »

toontra wrote: 27 Jun 2022, 7:25pm Spent a couple of weeks in the wonderful Angus glens with fantastic scenery and generally low traffic. I's cycled up there from London (as I do every year) without incident using all sorts of roads from dual carriageways to single-track lanes.

One thing that occured in rural Scotland that never happens on London - I'd hear a car approaching (and see it on my Garmin Varia) but it wouldn't overtake, even when the road was clear and there was plenty of space. It would hover somewhere close behind waiting for a clear view of several hundred yards of straight, flat road - far far longer that necessary to make a safe overtake.

This in turn would lead to other cars backing up and a queue forming. I would then have to pull over in a suitable space and wait for them to pass. One one occasion the offending car wouldn't pass even when I'd pulled over on clear road and I had to wave my arm to indicate what was required!

I actually get quite stressed when I get the sense I'm holding up cars, as those further back in the queue may well be getting irritable and more likely to make a close pass when they get to me.

Agreed the cautious overtaker isn't as big a problem as a close, fast overtaker, but it's a problem none the less. I can only assume these drivers are not confident of their driving ability or simply not used to seeing and overtaking cycles.
Wish I had your problem. My experience is not of cautious drivers but of downright dangerous drivers. However as a cyclist in the position you were in, if it made me feel uncomfortable and it was possible to do so I would pull into the side of the road and let the cautious driver pass and the build up of traffic before continuing on my journey
toontra
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Location: London

Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by toontra »

Bik3 Rid3r wrote: 9 Nov 2022, 3:15pm Wish I had your problem. My experience is not of cautious drivers but of downright dangerous drivers. However as a cyclist in the position you were in, if it made me feel uncomfortable and it was possible to do so I would pull into the side of the road and let the cautious driver pass and the build up of traffic before continuing on my journey
Erm... that's precisely what I did (as mentioned in the post you quoted). On one occasion the driver was so nervous they wouldn't even pass when I was pulled over as far as I could on the verge and the road ahead had perfect visibility and was clear. That's just plain incompetence and makes you wonder how they got their license.

I guess you need to read the whole thread to get a feel for the issues involved here. Quite a few cyclists have experienced precisely this (alternate) example of bad driving.
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foxyrider
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by foxyrider »

toontra wrote: 9 Nov 2022, 4:38pm On one occasion the driver was so nervous they wouldn't even pass when I was pulled over as far as I could on the verge and the road ahead had perfect visibility and was clear. That's just plain incompetence and makes you wonder how they got their license.
I've had that more than once and the 1.5m HC guidance, whilst generally a positive thing has some drivers so scared that they'll sit behind you for miles rather than potentially breach that space.
Convention? what's that then?
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Dan79
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Dan79 »

Tangled Metal wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 12:04am Can I take a different POV here? There can be many perfectly valid reasons why a vehicle's driver is being hesitant with overtaking a cyclist. The ones I have experienced at a driver I a very popular cycling area in South Lakes and for many on their LEJOG are as follows: -
- I know the roads and know there's a poor sightline, bend, hidden dip or other terrain that means I cannot see far enough to overtake.
- the cyclist seems a bit erratic in their steering even though I'm hanging easy back, I do not trust their bike handling to overtake until the road gets wider.
- There's multiple cyclists strung out with gaps that aren't long enough for me to slot into to safely pass in stages. I have to wait to pass safely.
- I cannot see far enough to know it is safe for myself so I'm ignoring your gestures telling me to pass.
- I am driving a van without guys acceleration so I need a longer stretch of road that I can see is clear to overtake safely.
- Finally, it's not your job as the cyclist to determine when it's safe for me to pass. It's my job as the driver. You do not know my capabilities, my vehicles capabilities, what I can see, etc. Above all if an overtake goes wrong it isn't your fault as a cyclist but mine as an overtaking driver. If I'm cautious it's not as bad as being reckless.

BTW I don't see myself as being cautious. I've made bad d3cis in the past and got away with it but I decided to learn from that. Perhaps I wait for the bigger overtaking opportunity than I really need but I wish other drivers did that too due to my experience cycling. In some ways I find this thread as one side of the phrase "you're damned if you do and damned if you don't". Also, if you could only have two extremes of hesitant drivers or those who overtake when not safe to do so, which would you prefer? For me the hesitant driver every time.
Perfect answer!

I've made mistakes as a motorist that I have got away with too; the potential consequences of a mistake when as charging around in 1000kg or so of metal, glass and plastic make me shudder and this is why I take my stance inclining towards caution as default.

A few years after obtaining my driving licence I overtook on my motorbike at speed a queue of 5 or 6 cars on a relatively straight road with just a slight curve to the left, where the car at the front was indicating to turn right (which I hadn't noticed, nor the cross road they were turning into) - thank god they saw me in their wing mirror and/or heard me and waited for me to zoom past, that was the closest I have come to being utterly pulverised so far. I realised my mistake immediately! Lesson learned and firmly embedded.

Another was as a passenger when travelling in France in a right hand drive panel van with my dad driving, I made a careless, bad call to proceed when his line of sight was impaired at a turn out of a junction onto a busy main road which could have led to a near miss or worse. Another lesson learnt even; when driving a car I will never simply accept "clear" or suchlike volunteered from a passenger but will always verify myself - I'm the driver, I'm responsible.

Neither incidents of which I will ever forget and like to think I learnt from.

As someone who drives, walks and cycles (who I daresay almost all on this forum do at some time though at varying proportions) but also someone who also rides a motorcycle and also a modern penny farthing, giving me a couple of additional points of view, I wholeheartedly agree that I prefer the "over" cautious approach rather than the aggressive approach of "overtake even if I terrify the overtaken".

My view is that if you cannot be sure that you can make a (any) manoeuvre safely then you shouldn't do it until you are satisfied that you can - whatever mode you are using at the time. I really do cringe at the idea of "not making progress" which many have cited as reasons for being marked down by driving examiners, this was certainly a thing that my peers were concerned about when learning to drive in the late 1990s.
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Pebble
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Pebble »

foxyrider wrote: 9 Nov 2022, 6:07pm
toontra wrote: 9 Nov 2022, 4:38pm On one occasion the driver was so nervous they wouldn't even pass when I was pulled over as far as I could on the verge and the road ahead had perfect visibility and was clear. That's just plain incompetence and makes you wonder how they got their license.
I've had that more than once and the 1.5m HC guidance, whilst generally a positive thing has some drivers so scared that they'll sit behind you for miles rather than potentially breach that space.
Just wonderful that they have your well being in mind - when this has happened to me I have simply stopped until they got past, and thanked them for their care. I wouldn't make them follow me for miles, thats not how to go on.
Manc33
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Manc33 »

This was probably my scariest one, bearing in mind I have 760mm handlebars on...

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Phil Fouracre
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Phil Fouracre »

Don’t know where your camera is mounted, but, you are way too close to the verge!
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mattsccm
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by mattsccm »

My view is that I would rather a hestitant driver behind me that a pushy one. At least any damage to me is likely to be less serious. I do feel uneasy about some hestitant drivers though as it makes me question their driving judgement and their safety on the road. I avoid roads and times when I might meet my 80+ year old father.
Mike Sales
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Mike Sales »

When a cautious driver misses good opportunities to overtake I begin to worry that they will feel driven, by impatience or pressure from the driver behind them, to take a chance on a more marginal opportunity.
It's the same the whole world over
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It's the rich what gets the pleasure
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Mike Sales
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by Mike Sales »

Cugel wrote: 28 Jun 2022, 11:39am
Ah ha! If that is the case, you have failed to develop the full cyclist's 6th sense, which is in fact a large collection of abilities to interpret the mental states of other road users from a plethora of outward gestures, facial expressions and other (often more unambiguous) signs they make at you. Myself, I have a mental library of car-twitches, car-decorations and similar stuff that can often be used in predicting likely behaviours in various scenarios.
Cugel
I think that the engine note and the throttle handling give me an inkling of the driver's character
I have a vivid memory, from decades ago, of riding up the Tanat valley over the Berwyns from Penbontfawr. The beautiful road is winding and thickly wooded on both sides. It was a lovely day and hardly any traffic, until I heard the engine of a large van, travelling fast, coming up behind. The sound gave me the feeling that this was a driver in a hurry who would not want to slow for anything. I hoped nothing would come the other way at the wrong moment. Bad luck. Two of the very few vehicles and the only cyclist coincided. It was an unpleasantly close call.
I had crossed the Berwyns via Wayfarer's Pass. Does anyone remember it?
wayfarer2.jpg
Not me!

https://www.cyclingnorthwales.co.uk/pages/wayfarer.htm
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
toontra
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by toontra »

Mike Sales wrote: 19 Jan 2023, 7:09pm Bad luck. Two of the very few vehicles and the only cyclist coincided.

This seems to happen on a regular basis. Riding along on a deserted road until you get to a bend and suddenly a vehicle in both directions just as you reach the apex. Annoyingly, this often occurs on steep climbs!
axel_knutt
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by axel_knutt »

Mike Sales wrote: 19 Jan 2023, 7:09pm I had crossed the Berwyns via Wayfarer's Pass. Does anyone remember it?
I have been there, but on foot, not the bike. I used to like Cynwyd YHA at the foot too, a simple little hostel in a water mill.
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ChrisButch
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Re: Drivers overtaking too cautiously?!

Post by ChrisButch »

I live among narrow Devon lanes. My experience is that when you have an over-cautious driver he/she is likely to be an urban holidaymaker for whom driving in those conditions is a strange and unnerving experience.
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