Duplicating an existing frame

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sussex cyclist
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Duplicating an existing frame

Post by sussex cyclist »

I'm going to have a frame built (not 100% sure where from!) and would basically like a duplicate of another frame of mine – not in every particular, but at least in terms of measurements. When I bring this up with builders, offering to ship it to them, what I'm hearing is it's not so simple. Why is that?

Also: can anybody recommend someone who can be given a frame and come up with a spec for a builder? Though some of the measurements are reasonably straightforward, I'd still be a little nervous about measuring it all up myself, never mind getting the angles right.
Jamesh
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Re: Duplicating an existing frame

Post by Jamesh »

I'm sure Ellis Briggs (Shipley, west Yorkshire) would do that for you?

Happy to drop down to them!
rogerzilla
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Re: Duplicating an existing frame

Post by rogerzilla »

It should be simple, unless the angles are such that lugs are no longer made, in which case it would need fillet brazing or welding.

Which builders have you tried?
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geomannie
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Re: Duplicating an existing frame

Post by geomannie »

sussex cyclist wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 11:27am I'm going to have a frame built (not 100% sure where from!) and would basically like a duplicate of another frame of mine – not in every particular, but at least in terms of measurements. When I bring this up with builders, offering to ship it to them, what I'm hearing is it's not so simple. Why is that?

Also: can anybody recommend someone who can be given a frame and come up with a spec for a builder? Though some of the measurements are reasonably straightforward, I'd still be a little nervous about measuring it all up myself, never mind getting the angles right.
I had http://www.daveyatescycles.co.uk/ build me a frame & he suggested bringing along a bike that I felt fitted me as a starting point. It wasn't just a question of copying my frame, but assessing my position on the existing bike, my intended use of the frame & making suggestions for frame improvement/options. I daresay you could get a frame copied, but you might miss out on some very good input from an experienced builder. I am delighted with the frame that Dave Yates built me. My existing frame was good but his is much better.
geomannie
slowster
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Re: Duplicating an existing frame

Post by slowster »

I suspect that what you want to do is likely to ring alarm bells for many custom builders. It is the sort of unusual request that many will probably associate with customers who prove to be a pain to deal with.

I think you would do better to have a face to face discussion with a good framebuilder, and to take with you not a frame, but a bike (set up for your normal riding position).

If you want a framebuilder who is not too far away from you, I suggest you consider Winston Vaz (https://www.varonha.co.uk).

There are very likely to be things that an experienced framebuilder will be able to suggest based on seeing you (your physique), seeing you on your bike, and from chatting with you, which cannot be really be done remotely.

For example, given your preference for horizontal top tubes, he might suggest an extended head tube, which avoids excessive spacers under the stem and/or too high a standover measurement, as shown here:
ETT.png
Similarly he will probably be able to offer a choice of frame components and explain the pros and cons of each, such as track ends:
TE.png
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sussex cyclist
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Re: Duplicating an existing frame

Post by sussex cyclist »

Most people would be delighted to be getting a new bike, but for me it's just a headache. I just want what I had. Minus the cracks, crevices, of course; so maybe not an exact duplicate…

I started another thread about making the decision between titanium and steel. I swoop in on a decision, then swoop back out again. Anyway, to address the replies:
geomannie wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 3:40pm It wasn't just a question of copying my frame, but assessing my position on the existing bike, my intended use of the frame & making suggestions for frame improvement/options. I daresay you could get a frame copied, but you might miss out on some very good input from an experienced builder.
I take your point. However, my riding style hasn't changed in the 14 months since this frame's death, and aside from a niggle or two (unrelated to geometry) it suited me perfectly, as I had been assessed by an experienced builder, since deceased.

Image
Mark Reilly

Therefore it seems like a safer option (in more ways than one, as I am immunocompromised and avoid unnecessary contact) than having someone else make a new in-person assessment.
rogerzilla wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 3:20pm It should be simple, unless the angles are such that lugs are no longer made, in which case it would need fillet brazing or welding.
No lugs involved.
Which builders have you tried?
Justin Burls. He seems a decent bloke, and I'm not posting this to complain. He was just the first to tell me he might not be able duplicate it. I sent him the frame and fork, but he doesn't have a jig. He suggested that I can rely on his experience and expertise. He's still a possibility.

Ted James [Design] also said it might not be quite the same, giving an example of this happening with someone he knew.

Woodrup Cycles. One of a number of possibilities (including Ellis Briggs – thanks @Jamesh) if I go with steel. They suggested I get the spec from Enigma, which for reasons which may not be obvious to them (though I've given large hints), isn't going to happen.

I'm also considering Waltly, the direct-from-China experience, which despite many good reviews, is daunting. It seems smart to have a CAD drawing for someone like them.
slowster wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 4:06pm I suspect that what you want to do is likely to ring alarm bells for many custom builders. It is the sort of unusual request that many will probably associate with customers who prove to be a pain to deal with.
That made me laugh, thanks. I'm surprised that it's unusual, but Justin said the same thing. And here I thought builders would be glad to have something concrete to work with!

. . .

Another complication is that the fork my old bike was paired with may be nearing the end of its life,

Image

so presumably I'd need to find another similar one to suit the new frame, else make allowances in the measurements if I want to keep my TT horizontal.
Last edited by sussex cyclist on 3 Jul 2022, 5:34pm, edited 1 time in total.
rogerzilla
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Re: Duplicating an existing frame

Post by rogerzilla »

Try Argos Racing Cycles. They have done some oddball stuff for me over the years and never questioned my logic or sanity.
PT1029
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Re: Duplicating an existing frame

Post by PT1029 »

It might be a frame builder might not like the geometry you offer to be copied, then a frame built for you copied from your old farme would not be a good product (in the eyes of the builder) to put his (or her) name on.
Assuming there is nothing "off" about your old frame design, I don't see why a builder can't get a pretty close copy of your existing frame.
Although a frame geometry can be copied, if different material and or tube guages/diameters are used, it might not feel the same.
I spoke to Darron at Sven in Weymouth recently about a frame. No firm design detail yet, he said he builds what ever people want, with the caviat that if it seems bad for technical reasons, he won't do it.
A UK built frame will probably be costlier than an Asian built frame.
Steel frames can be built almost anywhere. Titanium frames need to be welded in a spotlessly clean environment.

About 10 years ago I friend was pondering between aluminium and titanium for a new bike. There was an excellent thread on here on material for a frame. My friend read it and got a steel Dave Yates as a result, which h is very happy with. I believe Dave Yates is more or less retired.
I have an Argos, very well finished.
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sussex cyclist
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Re: Duplicating an existing frame

Post by sussex cyclist »

PT1029 wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 5:51pm Although a frame geometry can be copied, if different material and or tube guages/diameters are used, it might not feel the same.
I know that's a strong possibility. I just figured it would help to at least have the measurements/geometry dialled in. I suppose that with different tube gauges/diameters, the geometry might change…? It's too complicated for me, which is one reason that, yes, a good frame builder is the best person to talk to.

I could be wrong, but I don't think the geometry of my Enigma is what did it in.
It might be a frame builder might not like the geometry you offer to be copied, then a frame built for you copied from your old farme would not be a good product (in the eyes of the builder) to put his (or her) name on.
I know what you mean, but I don't want anybody's name on it. This came up with Woodrup, who suggested a badge instead:

Image

Although it's not ugly and happens to match the first letter of my surname, I don't care for branding. A new frame is one of the few opportunities where I can dispense with it.
rogerzilla wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 5:32pm Try Argos Racing Cycles. They have done some oddball stuff for me over the years and never questioned my logic or sanity.
I'll have a look at Argos, thanks.

On the subject of oddball/logic/sanity, today while on my ride I was idly considering going back to a geared bike, or at least a frame with vertical dropouts and forcing it to be a SS (eccentric hub, overkill derailleur, putting a spell on it to ensure a magic gear, what have you); this would allow me to go geared again should my knees ever go on strike as I can't really imagine any other reason, and provide a universe of options.

For example, there's Van Nicholas, which is relatively affordable and has a good warranty, two things which don't normally go together with ti. I noticed from the spec of the one I'd opt for – out of stock in my off-the-rack size,* wouldn't you know it – that it has an external BB, which isn't to my liking. The integrated headset I could live with. In addition to my preference for horizontal top tubes, not to mention toe clips, it was yet another reminder that I haven't moved with the times.

* Custom built is my strong preference, but I have been happy with bikes which weren't. It's just that as long as I'm having trouble finding what I want and am practically forcing myself into a custom job, I might as well get the measurements as right as I can.
Last edited by sussex cyclist on 3 Jul 2022, 6:21pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jamesh
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Re: Duplicating an existing frame

Post by Jamesh »

Are you after a modern steel bike

Enigma, Hewitt or spa,

Or a classic Woodrup Bob Jackson, Ellis Briggs, Mercian etc bike.

A local builder would be preferable if you have any issues too.
Jamesh
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Re: Duplicating an existing frame

Post by Jamesh »

sussex cyclist wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 6:19pm
PT1029 wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 5:51pm Although a frame geometry can be copied, if different material and or tube guages/diameters are used, it might not feel the same.
I know that's a strong possibility. I just figured it would help to at least have the measurements/geometry dialled in. I suppose that with different tube gauges/diameters, the geometry might change…? It's too complicated for me, which is one reason that, yes, a good frame builder is the best person to talk to.

I could be wrong, but I don't think the geometry of my Enigma is what did it in.
It might be a frame builder might not like the geometry you offer to be copied, then a frame built for you copied from your old farme would not be a good product (in the eyes of the builder) to put his (or her) name on.
I know what you mean, but I don't want anybody's name on it. This came up with Woodrup, who suggested a badge instead:

Image

Although it's not ugly and happens to match the first letter of my surname, I don't care for branding. A new frame is one of the few opportunities where I can dispense with it.
rogerzilla wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 5:32pm Try Argos Racing Cycles. They have done some oddball stuff for me over the years and never questioned my logic or sanity.
I'll have a look at Argos, thanks.

On the subject of oddball/logic/sanity, today while on my ride I was idly considering going back to a geared bike, or at least a frame with vertical dropouts and forcing it to be a SS (eccentric hub, overkill derailleur, putting a spell on it to ensure a magic gear, what have you); this would allow me to go geared again should my knees ever go on strike as I can't really imagine any other reason, and provide a universe of options.

For example, there's Van Nicholas, which is relatively affordable and has a good warranty, two things which don't normally go together with ti. I noticed from the spec of the one I'd opt for – out of stock in my off-the-rack size,* wouldn't you know it – that it has an external BB, which isn't to my liking. The integrated headset I could live with. In addition to my preference for horizontal top tubes, not to mention toe clips, it was yet another reminder that I haven't moved with the times.

* Custom built is my strong preference, but I have been happy with bikes which weren't. It's just that as long as I'm having trouble finding what I want and am practically forcing myself into a custom job, I might as well get the measurements as right as I can.
You could swap out an external htII bb for a square taper bb and chainset and be quids in.
mattsccm
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Re: Duplicating an existing frame

Post by mattsccm »

I would suspect that most frame builders would rather have some input in design. If they copy yours exactly but it doesn't work perfectly then they will get the blame. They also have their own standards , expertise, suppliers etc that they wish to apply. The customer isn't always right.
You go to a specialist to make the most of their expertise not your own I suppose.
Easy wat is to contact every possible maker and simply make your first question "will you copy my current frame?". I bet they will want to see it to ensure that it is measured their way.
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sussex cyclist
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Re: Duplicating an existing frame

Post by sussex cyclist »

Jamesh wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 7:27pm You could swap out an external htII bb for a square taper bb and chainset and be quids in.
Needless to say I don't know anything about external BBs. I assumed because the spec said external, the frame would only accept that.
mattsccm wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 7:39pm I would suspect that most frame builders would rather have some input in design.
So I'm discovering.
The customer isn't always right.
I'd like to see a thread on that question alone! (I used to work in customer service.)
You go to a specialist to make the most of their expertise not your own I suppose.
I can offer no expertise, only my body dimensions as previously recorded and applied to a frame that demonstrably worked.
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Re: Duplicating an existing frame

Post by slowster »

1. What tyre width do you want to use, and is that with full mudguards?

2. What size and year model of Langster do you have?

3. Were the Langster and your other bike(s) set up with the same position, i.e. saddle height, saddle distance behind the bottom bracket, relative height of saddle and bars, and distance from saddle to bars?

If available, a side on photograph of the Langster would be informative.
Jamesh
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Re: Duplicating an existing frame

Post by Jamesh »

sussex cyclist wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 7:53pm
Jamesh wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 7:27pm You could swap out an external htII bb for a square taper bb and chainset and be quids in.
Needless to say I don't know anything about external BBs. I assumed because the spec said external, the frame would only accept that.
mattsccm wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 7:39pm I would suspect that most frame builders would rather have some input in design.
So I'm discovering.
The customer isn't always right.
I'd like to see a thread on that question alone! (I used to work in customer service.)
You go to a specialist to make the most of their expertise not your own I suppose.
I can offer no expertise, only my body dimensions as previously recorded and applied to a frame that demonstrably worked.
No an external Shimano BB screws into a standard bb thread but places the bearings outboard and bigger that a sq BB. Axle is 24mm diameter.

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/technolo ... ech-2.html
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