Wot makes a tent 4 season?

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Sweep
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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

Post by Sweep »

Tangled Metal wrote: 25 Jul 2022, 1:28pm One last point. I have a Scandinavian tent, a Helsport lofoten, top of the range model. Defined as 4 season but I'd say 4 season Scandinavian valley at a stretch or uk sheltered upland. It's got a very aero shape with really good fabric and poles. At the time top spec poles from one of the two most respected pole manufacturers. Plus a higher than normal diameter pole too I think.

Having said that we've shaken the snow off a summer 5 man family tent and a £70 vango 3 man tunnel with fiberglass poles! Still slept through the night in both those inappropriate winter tents.

Seasons don't mean much but make a guide for people who don't know what they're about in bad weather or winter. Knowledge and experience is more important than slavish following of the seasons guide from brands.
not sure what that last sentence means tangled.
as for fibreglass poles, I definitely wouldn't use those in any sort of serious wind. Memories of a fraught night in Barmouth in a cheap Vango dome tent - poles bending inwards during night - kept pushing them back. The tent did survive but the poles started to fracture soon afterwards and needed a new set.
Can't really blame Vango and they did kindly send new poles (knowing what I know now I feel a tad quilty for this - must have wiped out their profit)
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Sweep
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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

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Update on the Skorpion2 I plumped for.
Slept out in it in last night for what the forecast said was due to be a minus 2C night though when I clambered out of the tent at 4am for a toilet break my thermometer said it was near 5 degrees inside. There was definitely ice on the tent when I got in.
Performed well and I would say it is a great 4 season tent.
It does seem to suffer from condensation to a certain extent as not as breathable as other tents meant for kinder weather but can live with this.
Packs up small - fine for one person (not two) if you aren't too tall.
Pockets all the way up both sides of the tent for general gubbins.
Some bike touring stuff would have to be kept outside I think but since I intend to use this for well hidden wild camping not a problem.
Very easy to put up.
Needs 14 pegs which quite low/moderate compared to some tents.
Just three guy lines.
Will maybe report back on the sleeping system separately as I maybe started another one or two relevant threads.
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mxg01
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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

Post by mxg01 »

Condensation will always be a problem with cold weather camping. If it's colder, it's usually calmer so no breeze to circulate air. If it's breezy then it's usually damp so it's only circulating damp air. Things can be different high up and with snow but you are not camping high up.
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Sweep
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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

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mxg01 wrote: 18 Jan 2023, 9:23am Condensation will always be a problem with cold weather camping. If it's colder, it's usually calmer so no breeze to circulate air. If it's breezy then it's usually damp so it's only circulating damp air. Things can be different high up and with snow but you are not camping high up.
Thanks for reassurance.
Snowed heavily onto it last night and no liquid inside it in the morning, but then I wasn't, as I intended to, sleeping in it.
I can live with the human generated condensation as I said.
Another thing I like about the tent - has a dark interior which blocks a lot of light - handy if freecamping furtively as a normal/lowish light inside the tent won't alert folk outside to your presence.
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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

Post by pjclinch »

Sweep wrote: 17 Jan 2023, 2:18pm
It does seem to suffer from condensation to a certain extent as not as breathable as other tents meant for kinder weather but can live with this.
Unless you have cotton canvas or single-skin Goretex or similar, very few modern tents are at all breathable. The flys are generally all impermeable. Where condensation will go up or down if all else is equal is the amount of moist air that can escape through holes and gaps, but if it does it'll take its heat with it.
You choose, you lose..

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Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
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Sweep
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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

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pjclinch wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 1:46pm
Sweep wrote: 17 Jan 2023, 2:18pm
It does seem to suffer from condensation to a certain extent as not as breathable as other tents meant for kinder weather but can live with this.
Unless you have cotton canvas or single-skin Goretex or similar, very few modern tents are at all breathable. The flys are generally all impermeable. Where condensation will go up or down if all else is equal is the amount of moist air that can escape through holes and gaps, but if it does it'll take its heat with it.
You choose, you lose..

Pete..
yep agree - the Skorpion 2 inner is rather light on mesh.

Tho is well designed I think and the condensation is well away from sleeping me - it's quite high at the head end.

My very minimalist Snugpak ionosphere has an inner that is virtually all mesh with a decent gap all round between inner and fly.
Not had any issues with that, though admittedly have never slept in deepest winter/in snow with it.
And probably wouldn't want to :)
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

Post by Tangled Metal »

Sweep wrote: 25 Jul 2022, 6:30pm
Tangled Metal wrote: 25 Jul 2022, 1:28pm One last point. I have a Scandinavian tent, a Helsport lofoten, top of the range model. Defined as 4 season but I'd say 4 season Scandinavian valley at a stretch or uk sheltered upland. It's got a very aero shape with really good fabric and poles. At the time top spec poles from one of the two most respected pole manufacturers. Plus a higher than normal diameter pole too I think.

Having said that we've shaken the snow off a summer 5 man family tent and a £70 vango 3 man tunnel with fiberglass poles! Still slept through the night in both those inappropriate winter tents.

Seasons don't mean much but make a guide for people who don't know what they're about in bad weather or winter. Knowledge and experience is more important than slavish following of the seasons guide from brands.
not sure what that last sentence means tangled.
as for fibreglass poles, I definitely wouldn't use those in any sort of serious wind. Memories of a fraught night in Barmouth in a cheap Vango dome tent - poles bending inwards during night - kept pushing them back. The tent did survive but the poles started to fracture soon afterwards and needed a new set.
Can't really blame Vango and they did kindly send new poles (knowing what I know now I feel a tad quilty for this - must have wiped out their profit)
Last sentence was about how you can rely on season rating and come a cropper. Or rely on knowledge and experience to have a good night. A mate slept in a high mountain tent, the more heavy duty quasar model, and snapped a pole while the next door tunnel tent , that's still a good tent but not as heavy duty, had an interesting but uneventful night. I slept through a serious storm in a flat tarp in a cave pitch while a mate had her hilleberg very nearly falling due to poor pitching without taking into account wind direction and terrain.

Our vango is still going strong. I think it's 11 or 12 years old and had a lot of use. Not a single failure or sign of imminent failure. When we had winter conditions it was usually in meteorological spring, March or even April on nights worse than the winter experienced around then.
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Sweep
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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

Post by Sweep »

some fair points tangled and I'm not going to dispute that a cave will stand up to a lot of wind.

I still wouldn't use a fibre glass poled tent for cycle touring though.

Fixing a broken metal pole section, including replacing the section, is pretty easy (and of course pole failures DO happen now and again) but not so easy with a fibre-glass pole.
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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

Post by PH »

Sweep wrote: 17 Jan 2023, 2:18pm Update on the Skorpion2 I plumped for.
Well done for putting it to the test, made me shudder just thinking about it, I'm glad there's people doing such stuff but gladder it isn't me!
Going back to my original theory - whether these really are four season tents or forth season - Are you likely to use it for anything other than winter camping?
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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

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PH wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 9:26am
Well done for putting it to the test, made me shudder just thinking about it, I'm glad there's people doing such stuff but gladder it isn't me!
Going back to my original theory - whether these really are four season tents or forth season - Are you likely to use it for anything other than winter camping?
will only use for autumn to spring camping or somewhere I expect conditions to be generally foul.
Probably in no lower than minus 2 at night's low point.

Confident that it will cope with anything I need - am not a high mountain walker.
There was a small pool of water in the far bottom corner one night but am pretty certain that this was because I had let heavy snow remain on the fly for over a day - if I pushed against the inner ever so slightly I could feel the weight of the snow. No problem in that spot otherwise and it has been tested in several days of pouring rain.
Excellent tent I think for free camping (for campsite camping I would go for something with more space) - though the instructions are somewhat lacking - two of the three poles (DAC no less) are pre-bent at one end and the instructions don't say whether they should be at the back or front of the tent - some debate online about this with varied conclusions - I called snugpak and after the nice receptionist consulting with an in-house hopefully expert it appears that they should go at the front.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

Post by Tangled Metal »

Sweep wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 9:14am some fair points tangled and I'm not going to dispute that a cave will stand up to a lot of wind.

I still wouldn't use a fibre glass poled tent for cycle touring though.

Fixing a broken metal pole section, including replacing the section, is pretty easy (and of course pole failures DO happen now and again) but not so easy with a fibre-glass pole.
We had a metal tent pole fail after one night weekend car camp test and 2 nights of a cycle tour. I understand the view about fibreglass poles and agree. It is the received wisdom of industry experts that they're not the best materials for backpacking tents. However, all types of poles have three significant factors imho. Materials, design and construction.

Materials I tend to agree with you for more technical use. Note that our fibreglass poled tent is only for sneaky family car camping. If they break the end of the night in a car or now a campervan makes the issue insignificant.

Design for n example friction fitting of pole section joint pins or crimps fit or glue fit.

Construction is basically about how well its made and method m of construction. Sil-nylon tents can have their fly fabric joined with a seam construction that effectively seals the seam like hilleberg do.

I have only had one pole failure on our first cycle tour using a brand new tent. We coped with a pole repair tube that came from the fibreglass poled vango tent. The supposedly higher quality wild country tent with Al poles from a supposedly respected pole manufacturer came without a repair kit so I nicked the vango one.

As an aside the tent pole snapped just after the third pitch with nobody near it and without any significant force applied such as strong gust of wind or someone knocking it. It failed where the joint pin was crimped into place with three crimps. Two cracks propagated from two out of three crimp holes and the pin came out with the side that held the pin in it poking through the pole tube with two, sharp points. We were lucky that the fabric was strong enough not to completely tear.

For car camping imho a vango tent with fibreglass poles for 3 season camping other than storms is OK. For seriously inclement weather, winter, remote or activity based camping I'd base my choice around al poles made by Easton or DAC or similar quality pole manufacturer. I'd choose friction fit pole pins or glued but never ever crimped. I'd always carry duct tape and pole repair tube. Preferably a seal type glue for repairs too.

Oh and I'll never buy wild country or terra nova, it's parent company, neither.
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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

Post by Tangled Metal »

Just counted the number of tents I've experienced. I think 12 but there's this feeling I've missed one too. That's without considering my two bivvy bags and three, no four tarps.

Forgot I used a laser and a vaude owned by the ramblers association group I was in too so that's 14 tents. I've not included tents I've shared with others such as scout tents, force 10 canvas a frame tents for 8 or 10 people and a quasar I once shared.

I'm not an expert but I've learnt and experienced a bit in 47 out of my 50 years of existence. I've pushed the envelope of what camping shelters are designed for too. The nights you just survived are the ones I remember more vividly too! 😂
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Sweep
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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

Post by Sweep »

agree with you about fibreglass - fine for car camping.
I too had a tent pole break without any action of wind or human - sitting having breakfast outside a Vango Spirit 200+ (tunnel tent) , a sudden crack and a pole had broken. Only thing I could think of causing it was the tent material drying and contracting - maybe I pitched too tightly. Was a crimped pole I think - they are way too common.
Both my Snugpaks (Ionosphere plus Skorpion2) use DAC poles and they I have far more faith in them. Better have - spare DAC pole bits can be a bit of a struggle to find.
Apart from non crimping, I also have the idea that the DAC poles bend more confidently than my Vango crimped things - with those I often have the idea that I am approaching a snapping point as I put the tents up.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

Post by Tangled Metal »

The spirit I think is a gothic arch type of tunnel tent I think. Where did it fail? No doubt on a crimp but I'd think it's on the top of the lower pole. I personally think the gothic arch isn't a strong design. I prefer rounded tunnel tent poles as I suspect there's a more even stress on the poles..I might be wrong though.

Undoubtedly the crimp of the pole is a poor design and imho you should avoid tents with these poles.

I think mine might have failed due to the guyline. Certain guyline materials contract more than others when they dry out. Perhaps that b happened as the tent was wet from the night before and we were pitched on a site with a bit of a breeze and it was only slightly cloudy too. We did tighten the guys well too.
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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

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Tangled Metal wrote: 22 Jan 2023, 7:02pm The spirit I think is a gothic arch type of tunnel tent I think. Where did it fail? No doubt on a crimp but I'd think it's on the top of the lower pole. I personally think the gothic arch isn't a strong design. I prefer rounded tunnel tent poles as I suspect there's a more even stress on the poles..I might be wrong though.

Undoubtedly the crimp of the pole is a poor design and imho you should avoid tents with these poles.

I think mine might have failed due to the guyline. Certain guyline materials contract more than others when they dry out. Perhaps that b happened as the tent was wet from the night before and we were pitched on a site with a bit of a breeze and it was only slightly cloudy too. We did tighten the guys well too.
don't have spirit 200+ to hand so can't check if it has has gothic arch. May well have.
failure was quite probably due to a crimp - was some time ago so can't quite remember.
i made the problem worse by tearing the sleeve the pole fed through on the fly when hurriedly cack-handedly extracting it. so abandoned camp. these days would be more sussed - could have been more careful and sleeved the break without tearing or even replaced the entire section of pole - at least one advantage of Vangos is that they tend to use very common pole diameters. These days I look for tents which don't enclose the pole in long runs of what is effectively the flysheet.
Agree also about gothic arches - doubtless very good and strong on cathedrals etc with a load of heavy stone but on tent poles they always strike (engineering ignorant I stress) me as a bit of a cheat. I like things simple so that stuff can easily be fixed. Surely a decent tent designer could design a tent where all of the poles were straight but just bend? Arched and pre-bent bits do seem incredibly common though, just as crimped poles are :(
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