Wot makes a tent 4 season?

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Sweep
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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

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Tangled Metal wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 5:06pm

It's common in bushcraft circles to say that the most important thing to havei n the outdoors is knowledge . It weighs nothing and you always have it with you.
up to a point lord copper.

Part of that knowledge surely to not head off into wet cold and windy wilds without warm sheltering gear for the dear body?
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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

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Tangled Metal wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 5:06pm I once got told off for not wearing big, heavy boots on a footpath over the tops of Yoke and Ill Bell iirc. It was a cold winter's day with a deep layer of fresh snow. We'd come up the steep side from the valley with ice axe out just in case. We met an elderly couple wearing b1 boots with c1 crampons sat on a summit. They left as we got there, wading almost knee deep in the fresh, powdery snow.

They were wearing balled up, traditional walker's crampons which from my past experience don't help much in deep snow. I was wearing trail shoes and waterproof socks. Toasties warm and dry. Plenty of grip on the track down which was compressed snow and ice. Trail shoes give me better grip than boots. I could easily trot down at pace in shoes. The truth is knowledge and experience meant I knew what was right for me in those conditions. I also laughed at their attempt at telling me off as I jogged off at twice their speed and more sure footed too.

My point is that knowledge and experience made me know that conventional wisdom and advice didn't apply to be in those conditions. Fitness, knowledge, experience and dare I say skills meant more than slavishly following received wisdom on kit choice.

It's common in bushcraft circles to say that the most important thing to havei n the outdoors is knowledge . It weighs nothing and you always have it with you.
Mountaineering Scotland got in to a bit of hot water recently when they set up a winter mountain smarts quiz on their website and presented it through social media. Various questions, quite a few of which were looking for the "stock answers" (e.g., that you need special boots in winter). Chris Townsend scored 3/8 (!) and was among many suggesting it really wasn't any good!

They took it down and apologised, accepting that much of it was bereft of nuance and context.

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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

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Sweep wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 9:34am
Tangled Metal wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 5:06pm

It's common in bushcraft circles to say that the most important thing to havei n the outdoors is knowledge . It weighs nothing and you always have it with you.
up to a point lord copper.

Part of that knowledge surely to not head off into wet cold and windy wilds without warm sheltering gear for the dear body?
That's true, but doesn't contradict what Tangled Meta said.
A dose of skill and knowledge lets you know to what degree you need a Lowest Common Denominator solution and when you can get away with less, and this is really what's underpinned the whole ultralight movement since Ray Jardine started it in the early 90s. And while full on ultralight gram-counting isn't for everyone, lighter equipment has found its way in to the mainstream and benefitted everyone.

In the early 90s there was a tendency to think everyone always needed a bunker-class tent to go up a mountain at any time of year, now we have the situation where folk have done a winter round of the Munros with a Laser Comp mainly by virtue of knowing what they're doing, including situations it won't work.

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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

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pjclinch wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 10:48am
Sweep wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 9:34am
Tangled Metal wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 5:06pm

It's common in bushcraft circles to say that the most important thing to havei n the outdoors is knowledge . It weighs nothing and you always have it with you.
up to a point lord copper.

Part of that knowledge surely to not head off into wet cold and windy wilds without warm sheltering gear for the dear body?
That's true, but doesn't contradict what Tangled Meta said.
A dose of skill and knowledge lets you know to what degree you need a Lowest Common Denominator solution and when you can get away with less, and this is really what's underpinned the whole ultralight movement since Ray Jardine started it in the early 90s. And while full on ultralight gram-counting isn't for everyone, lighter equipment has found its way in to the mainstream and benefitted everyone.

In the early 90s there was a tendency to think everyone always needed a bunker-class tent to go up a mountain at any time of year, now we have the situation where folk have done a winter round of the Munros with a Laser Comp mainly by virtue of knowing what they're doing, including situations it won't work.

Pete.
not really arguing with you, but I tend to think that it's best to err on the side of caution/be prepared over-prepared, belt and braces etc etc. Same as I always carry more food/energy stuff than I am maybe likely to need. We are fortunate I think in being cyclists - don't have to pare pare pare down. Also winter adventures are likely to be shorter than those in kinder climes so no great problem to carry a bit more.
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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

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Sweep wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 3:05pm
pjclinch wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 10:48am
Sweep wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 9:34am
up to a point lord copper.

Part of that knowledge surely to not head off into wet cold and windy wilds without warm sheltering gear for the dear body?
That's true, but doesn't contradict what Tangled Meta said.
A dose of skill and knowledge lets you know to what degree you need a Lowest Common Denominator solution and when you can get away with less, and this is really what's underpinned the whole ultralight movement since Ray Jardine started it in the early 90s. And while full on ultralight gram-counting isn't for everyone, lighter equipment has found its way in to the mainstream and benefitted everyone.

In the early 90s there was a tendency to think everyone always needed a bunker-class tent to go up a mountain at any time of year, now we have the situation where folk have done a winter round of the Munros with a Laser Comp mainly by virtue of knowing what they're doing, including situations it won't work.
not really arguing with you, but I tend to think that it's best to err on the side of caution/be prepared over-prepared, belt and braces etc etc. Same as I always carry more food/energy stuff than I am maybe likely to need. We are fortunate I think in being cyclists - don't have to pare pare pare down. Also winter adventures are likely to be shorter than those in kinder climes so no great problem to carry a bit more.
This is fair comment on a typical cycle tour, though with a winter mountaineering expedition one starts to run in to the dilemma that the more emergency kit you carry, the more likely you are to have an emergency (because you get tired a lot quicker and go much slower).

And it's not necessarily about emergencies, just how much fun. A day with a light load can be a lot more fun than a day with a heavy load, and you're not necessarily betting your life, it can just be risking a possible miserable night.

Some of this is psychology. I once came across a lady who'd traded in her Akto on something geodesic not because the Akto had ever let her down but she just couldn't sleep in something that moved around in the wind like a single hoop does, spending the night having nagging doubts. She knew in her head it was fine, but that didn't get through to her heart, so in that case the fun bonus of a better night's sleep topped the fun bonus of a smaller, lighter pack.

In other words, if you're happier with belt and braces then go for belt and braces!

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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

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Iirc there's a 1980s cover of the great outdoors, long before it became an acronym, which had a photograph of a guy doing a winter munro round next to his karrimor tent that weighed iirc about a kilo! Ultralight started before the 90s it seems!

Of course in between that article / round and the 90s UL revolution there was a hiccup in the way of kit obesity of which karrimor were as guilty as anyone with the Jaguar backpack.

It's quite possible to go out for a winter overnight without shelter and have a good night. There's a few well known snow hole places in the cairngorm for example and nothing too. I've spent a night out in a winter in a bothy. Lovely night very social with like minded people turning up around the fire. I used to know people who often stayed out in the various caves and howffs of the Lakes without much more than a sleeping bag and mat. Including the secret cave with hidden door and lifting mechanism believed to be made by a Vickers worker in the 80s I think.

Knowledge is the starting point, without it you won't even be able to judge for yourself what kit you need let alone how to do it safely.
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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

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Tangled Metal wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 4:43pm
It's quite possible to go out for a winter overnight without shelter and have a good night. There's a few well known snow hole places in the cairngorm for example and nothing too. I've spent a night out in a winter in a bothy. Lovely night very social with like minded people turning up around the fire
well a building and fire undoubtedly helps tangled.
not to mention other folks to snuggle/whatever with.
but must admit am a bit puzzled as to how this relates to a search for a tent to winter in.
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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

Post by Tangled Metal »

Sweep wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 5:37pm
Tangled Metal wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 4:43pm
It's quite possible to go out for a winter overnight without shelter and have a good night. There's a few well known snow hole places in the cairngorm for example and nothing too. I've spent a night out in a winter in a bothy. Lovely night very social with like minded people turning up around the fire
well a building and fire undoubtedly helps tangled.
not to mention other folks to snuggle/whatever with.
but must admit am a bit puzzled as to how this relates to a search for a tent to winter in.
We also went out for a tent less winter trip after a heavy snowfall in the lakes. Unfortunately we turned out to pick a spot known for being most likely to get deeper snow that's safe for snow holes that on that day didn't have enough snow. No problem. We were fit and travelling very light so just readjusted and had a long but great fun days walk instead. Moving fast because we didn't go belt and braces but relied on knowledge and experience. One of our group was a full mountain leader qualified and had snow holed a bit before but everyone was a seasoned outdoor type and wild camper in their home patch.

My point being you can go light with less kit and be as safe or safer as someone with all the kit but less experience. That knowledge and experience is always the most important thing to have. Whether fully yours or the experience and knowledge of those you go out with. A bothy and fire is always a nicer thing in serious winter of course. As is a few treats such as foraged sapphire cooked on the fire or sweet chestnuts on the fire. My point was in response to the discussion on kit and experience that had developed. As you know threads do drift and you'll rarely keep things strictly on topic!
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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

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My copy of Bill March's "Modern Snow and Ice Techniques" has a broadly applicable quote from a Canadian farmer's almanac at the start:
Good judgement is the result of experience
Experience is the result of bad judgement
It's certainly best to make your mistakes when you've got belt and braces!

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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

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Tangled Metal wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 4:43pm Iirc there's a 1980s cover of the great outdoors, long before it became an acronym, which had a photograph of a guy doing a winter munro round next to his karrimor tent that weighed iirc about a kilo! Ultralight started before the 90s it seems!
Mountain Marathons were probably the start and of course the Karrimor International Mountain Marathon was the original (now it's called the Original Mountain Marathon, in fact), first run in 1968.
It was doing the KIMM in the late 80s that really opened my eyes to not needing chunky boots to go outside, but the KIMM was mainly limited to fell-running types, a race where every extra gram made you slower. This developed in to something of a niche for tents that satisfied the rules as a higher priority than providing protection for their occupants!

Ray Jardine's take was a bit different, as he was aiming at long distance trail hiking outwith the context of racing, and that's where it got much more mainstream.

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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

Post by Tangled Metal »

Iirc it was the first recorded winter round attempt. Or after it was successful. A karrimor A frame tent that was or just under 1kg. I think it was one of the big names of long distance hiking back then. Kind of before Chris Townsend became the big gear and LDW name in Britain. Can't for the life of me remember much more.
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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

Post by horizon »

Sweep wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 5:37pm
Tangled Metal wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 4:43pm
It's quite possible to go out for a winter overnight without shelter and have a good night. There's a few well known snow hole places in the cairngorm for example and nothing too. I've spent a night out in a winter in a bothy. Lovely night very social with like minded people turning up around the fire
well a building and fire undoubtedly helps tangled.
not to mention other folks to snuggle/whatever with.
but must admit am a bit puzzled as to how this relates to a search for a tent to winter in.
I think it is saying that there isn't any such thing. You can get any conditions anywhere and at any time that require a strong tent, viz:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_storm_of_1987
(link includes reference to 120 mph winds in Shoreham in mid-October).

A winter tent might be stronger or it could be warmer. AFAIK, no attention is paid to the latter so back to strength: the difference between a weak tent in winter and one in summer and in certain places is the consequence of the tent being blown down. In winter in Norway, half-way up a mountain say, this could be fatal; in summer in Surrey, a pleasant night in the campsite clubhouse.

Two other attributes a winter tent might have is size (after all, you might be spending more time in it) and visibility (for when they come looking for you).

PS One further attribute might be to resist a falling tree (having seen a tent destroyed by a falling branch a couple of years ago).
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

Post by Tangled Metal »

A tent to resist a falling tree? What a thought!

Winter tent? No such thing but they do like season ratings. All hilleberg tents back in the day used to be all seasons but not all were recommended for winter in the mountains or Arctic. Later they became colour ranges.

Incidentally a mate had a simple hilleberg nallo all season but not what other brands call 4 seasons and another an ultra quasar full geodesic 4 season plus. One winter storm and one survived intact and one snapped a pole and the occupant had to move into the other tent to last the night. Which one survived as their only, still standing shelter?
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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

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Tangled Metal wrote: 26 Jan 2023, 4:17pm A tent to resist a falling tree? What a thought!
It depends how you look at "resist" and "survive". Something a falling tree will bounce off, not going to happen unless it's a very wee tree, but rips in a fly with really good tear strength won't propagate so the tent will still give some shelter, while much lower tear strength could mean catastrophic failure of the whole fly.
Tangled Metal wrote: 26 Jan 2023, 4:17pmIncidentally a mate had a simple hilleberg nallo all season but not what other brands call 4 seasons and another an ultra quasar full geodesic 4 season plus. One winter storm and one survived intact and one snapped a pole and the occupant had to move into the other tent to last the night. Which one survived as their only, still standing shelter?
I don't know, but a mountaineering friend of mine traded in his Quasar for a Nallo GT as he considered the latter a better tool for his needs. A couple of sea-kayaking pals have had Quasar poles snap in fairly unserious circumstances that TN wouldn't replace as they claimed salt corrosion, which struck me (and, unsurprisingly the owners too) as pretty pathetic.

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Re: Wot makes a tent 4 season?

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horizon wrote: 26 Jan 2023, 2:27pm
A winter tent might be stronger or it could be warmer. AFAIK, no attention is paid to the latter
There's a premium US tent brand called Warmlite... clue in the name!

And while less specific about it, Hille's "4 season" designs very specifically have flys down to the ground while the 3 season ones very specifically don't, in the latter case so they're cooler. So by reverse implication part of the 4 season design is to be warmer.

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