Default 20mph for Wales

Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Jdsk »

Yes, it would be much better if there were many more higher quality controlled trials.

But when there is insufficient evidence it's much better to say so than to make sweeping statements.

Jonathan
Albrecht
Posts: 75
Joined: 26 Jul 2022, 8:47pm

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Albrecht »

Pete Owens wrote: 5 Aug 2022, 12:50pm On one that would be sufficient to replace the 30 signs with 20 signs on all the boundary streets On the other ...
It's a no brainer, isn't it?

Even just removing all the lamppost and road marking clutter, indicating what applies where, would be a win on its own.

it's simple, one rule. "If it's in a built up area, and it's got street lights, it's 20 mph" (dual carriageways included). I'd support a nationwide roll out.

I guess now the Tories are going to avoid it and play pass the parcel onto the next Labour government, so they can blame them instead.

In London there's a more unique equation with Transport for London seemingly being a law unto itself above and beyond the local governments it crosses or effects but I drove along Marylebone Road recently and, from memory, most or all of it was 20mph. Sure, it's frustrating as hell.

Especially as the van gearing wasn't set up for it.
rodking
Posts: 8
Joined: 16 Jun 2020, 8:02pm

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by rodking »

Its good to see all this discussion on 20mph limits for Wales.

We created a briefing on the actual 20mph Order at https://www.20splenty.org/wales_20mph_order

For those interested in casualty reduction when implemented then its typically 20-40% as evidenced in Edinburgh, Bath, Calderdale, Cheshire West and Chester. All done without physical calming, but lots of engagement.

Note that now there is little difference between zones and limits because a zone only requires a minimum of a single physical calming device which can be anywhere within the zone.


Much more is available at www.20splenty.org/briefings

Rod
rodking
Posts: 8
Joined: 16 Jun 2020, 8:02pm

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by rodking »

For anyone who is interested, here is a video of a presentation made to Road Safety GB on why UK should set a national 20mph limit like Wales.

https://vimeo.com/653008691

Best wishes

Rod
Albrecht
Posts: 75
Joined: 26 Jul 2022, 8:47pm

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Albrecht »

rodking wrote: 6 Aug 2022, 12:08pm Its good to see all this discussion on 20mph limits for Wales.

We created a briefing on the actual 20mph Order at 20s Plenty
Are you a cyclist and part of 20s Plenty? If so, here's hoping it's a success and set a precedent for the rest of the nation.

A long time ago I tried to get a "2020" campaign off the ground to bring about the same at our borough level but it went down like a lead ballon. That was for a 20pmh limit for the year 2000!

As an automobile engineer, do you have any response to the comments regarding re-gearing motor vehicles to limit their performance and make lower speeds more comfortable? (I appreciate that it is a big ask to expect the Clarkson-like dominated industry to accept!).
Jdsk
Posts: 24478
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Jdsk »

"Traffic Orders & 20mph Public Attitudes Survey":
https://gov.wales/sites/default/files/p ... survey.pdf

"The value of prevention – casualty reductions in switching from a 30mph to 20mph speed limit default in Wales":
https://blogs.napier.ac.uk/tri/wp-conte ... on.AD_.pdf

Guardian coverage:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... 0mph-wales

Jonathan
pwa
Posts: 17357
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by pwa »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-63542427

Claim that default 20mph speed limit in Wales could save £100m a year.
Pete Owens
Posts: 2440
Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Pete Owens »

Actually £100 million saving in the FIRST year. Savings will be greater in subsequent years as you will not need to subtract the cost of implementation.

Though the actual savings will be dependent on the degree to which local councils exempt roads from the reduced limit. Doing so will both increase the cost of signage AND reduce the benefits since the exempt roads are likely to be the busiest roads where most of the collisions occur.
rotavator
Posts: 987
Joined: 6 Jun 2016, 9:50pm
Location: North Wales

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by rotavator »

My feeling is that the new limits will not be inforced and they will be ignored by most motorists but we will see....
pwa
Posts: 17357
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by pwa »

rotavator wrote: 8 Nov 2022, 5:42pm My feeling is that the new limits will not be inforced and they will be ignored by most motorists but we will see....
I don't know how it will be implemented, but it seems inevitable that there will be a timetable that gives councils a period in which to assess which roads to include within the default limit, and which roads to exclude. Then some more time to bring about changes on the ground. But I think it is a step forward and at last makes councils look afresh at whether roads really are suitable for a 30 limit, or whether 20 makes more sense. As I am sure it very often does.
Pete Owens
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Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Pete Owens »

The 20mph default limit will come into effect next September - which is more than enough time to buy a shedload of 20 signs.

Local authorities will not need to decide whether 20mph is appropriate - that will happen by default.

Local authorities have always had the power to set limits above or below the default by means of imposing traffic regulation orders. They will continue to have this power beyond next September so there is no deadline or need to delay implementation to accommodate this. I suspect some tory run councils will want to use their powers extensively to undermine the effectiveness of the scheme.

When this was done in the Scottish Borders it all went in very smoothly and efficiently in a fraction of the time the Welsh government has spent taking about it, implementing trials and so on. A year after implementation a handful of changes were implemented - this was mostly minor adjustments to the edge of town boundaries.
rotavator
Posts: 987
Joined: 6 Jun 2016, 9:50pm
Location: North Wales

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by rotavator »

Pete Owens wrote: 8 Nov 2022, 10:00pm I suspect some tory run councils will want to use their powers extensively to undermine the effectiveness of the scheme.
AFAIK there is no council Wales with a Conservative majority.
Ron
Posts: 1382
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 9:07pm

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Ron »

I would prefer to see a blanket 20 mph limit on all streets in a community as exists with the 30mph limit. To have 20 mph limits on some streets and 30mph limits on others requires a lot of signage, also much greater diligence from drivers if they are not to contravene a limit. Time spent looking for speed limit signs is time taken from hazard spotting.
Nigel
Posts: 463
Joined: 25 Feb 2007, 6:29pm

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Nigel »

Ron wrote: 8 Nov 2022, 11:05pm I would prefer to see a blanket 20 mph limit on all streets in a community as exists with the 30mph limit. To have 20 mph limits on some streets and 30mph limits on others requires a lot of signage, also much greater diligence from drivers if they are not to contravene a limit. Time spent looking for speed limit signs is time taken from hazard spotting.
Signs - every road with a 20mph requires repeaters. That's traffic law for the UK (unlike 30, which is default when there is street lighting, no repeater needed). Whether "blanket for entire town" or "selective with some roads staying at 30" will need lots of signs, and selective will use fewer signs.

Distracted by the signs is the excuse of drivers not capable of the observation standard required to pass a driving test.

I live in a very large area (Scottish Borders) which has had 20mph in residential, urban and villages since covid. With a few roads put back to 30. The number of signs is large. The local authority was easily able to change them all, including adding the large number of 20 repeaters, in a few months.


- Nigel
Pete Owens
Posts: 2440
Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Pete Owens »

Nigel wrote: 9 Nov 2022, 9:30am
Ron wrote: 8 Nov 2022, 11:05pm I would prefer to see a blanket 20 mph limit on all streets in a community as exists with the 30mph limit. To have 20 mph limits on some streets and 30mph limits on others requires a lot of signage, also much greater diligence from drivers if they are not to contravene a limit. Time spent looking for speed limit signs is time taken from hazard spotting.
Signs - every road with a 20mph requires repeaters. That's traffic law for the UK (unlike 30, which is default when there is street lighting,
Note the subject of this thread

In WALES from next September they are changing the default from 30 to 20 - this means repeaters will not be needed at all if the local authority simply goes along with the default then all that needs to change are the numbers on the edge of town boundary signs (it could be done with "2" stickers covering the exising "3"s on the 30 signs. IF they want to change some roads to 30 mph then those roads will need repeaters and also new boundary signs will be needed at every point where the limit changes.
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