I read all the lines of your reply and they contain absolutely nothing that invalidates the empirical real world measurements of improved capacity of 20mph roads.
All you have done is perform a calculation on a set of a set of spurious assumptions. In terms of scientific method if your hypothesis is contradicts real world observations then it is your hypothesis that is wrong - not the world.
Default 20mph for Wales
Re: Default 20mph for Wales
I have just got back from a few days on Anglesey, but driving rather than cycling. I have to say that I thought the widespread 20mph speed limits worked well. Speeds were probably a few mph over 20, but that's a lot better than a few mph over 30 which is the norm in my part of England. Compliance seemed fairly good, and I felt a lot less pressure from following drivers when keeping to the limit than I do at home. The only downside was keeping abreast of the sometimes frequently changing limits.
No doubt there would be huge kickback from the motoring lobby, but I would be very pleased to see a similar blanket 20mph limit imposed in the built-up areas of England.
No doubt there would be huge kickback from the motoring lobby, but I would be very pleased to see a similar blanket 20mph limit imposed in the built-up areas of England.
Re: Default 20mph for Wales
Although I haven't ridden or driven in Anglesey, my now 7-year experience of living, cycling and driving in mid-west Wales tells me that drivers are generally better mannered in this part of the world than my 70 year experience in various parts of Ingurland informs me, in which there seems to be a madding crowd of eager strivers on missions causing them to drive always in a hurry, whilst texting or otherwise informing the wider world of their important mission.David F wrote: 14 Jun 2026, 9:33pm I have just got back from a few days on Anglesey, but driving rather than cycling. I have to say that I thought the widespread 20mph speed limits worked well. Speeds were probably a few mph over 20, but that's a lot better than a few mph over 30 which is the norm in my part of England. Compliance seemed fairly good, and I felt a lot less pressure from following drivers when keeping to the limit than I do at home. The only downside was keeping abreast of the sometimes frequently changing limits.
No doubt there would be huge kickback from the motoring lobby, but I would be very pleased to see a similar blanket 20mph limit imposed in the built-up areas of England.
The 20mph limit in Wales was initially greeted by a few cries of rage and even some paint-blotting of the new limit signs but generally folk have settled down to the new limits, with a few exceptions of the inevitable self-centred little skinbags who are part of the 95% believing they are better than the average driver so entitled to break the various rules, especially when driving in their imaginary car rally.
One fault with the 20mph limit arrangements is that they haven't been implemented in a coherent and regular fashion, as the arrangements allowed various local authorities to make what seem arbitrary decisions about where to apply the new limits .... and where not to. There are still a number of villages along a route where the old 30mph or 40mph limits remain, despite those villages have identical hazards (junctions, gateways, driveways, blind bends, no pavements past rows of houses, etc.) as the next village down the route that does have a 20mph limit (and sometimes speed bumps to enforce it).
The problem is the old and familiar one - most drivers see a speed limit sign as a speed instruction sign. They take no notice of the actual hazards and the actual safe maximum speed for the (truly) average driver. There's the ridiculous result of many stretches of 40mph limit through high-hazard stretches of a village but with half a dozen or more large-letter road paintings saying ARAF/SLOW! You'd think a council road authority would resolve that contradiction ..... but they don't.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
John Maynard Keynes
Re: Default 20mph for Wales
I suspect 20 limits initially worked better in Wales for similar reasons average speed limit sections work well too, fear of prosecution. There was - perhaps an urban myth - suggestion that speeding was more strictly policed in Wales than elsewhere. Once people were over the initial unfamiliarity of the slow speed things settle.
For many rural areas this may make sense, but I feel it becomes less sensible in heavy urban areas.
The general public have shown themselves to be incapable of adhearing to limits were there is little threat of prosecution. Political will to address this is limited as sections of the political spectrum will portray any strengthening of speed policing as an afront to personal liberties and an attack on drivers. Fix this first, so the general public largely adhere to limits and slow for hazard sections. If public pressure doesn't work ensure punishments for speeding are
probable rather than rare. That way a 20 limit will limit to a cruise/peak speed of 20 rather than more like 30.
Personally I feel this is indicative of a general failure in managing driving attitudes, and indeed how driving is policed. I feel in many places if drivers peak speeds were capped at 30 in a 30 zone and dropped to ~20 for high risk areas near schools or areas with lots of obstructions there would be very little increase in overall safety in setting 20 limits.
Alas that's an idealistic view and a sizable proportion of the driving public's anxety and stress levels are inversely proportional to speed. Happy to do 90+ on busy wet motorways and 40+ in 30s. These stress levels increasing when they feel they have been unduely delaid either by unreasobably low limits or traffic.
I live in a region of St Helens, Merseyside, between Liverpool & Manchester. Urban and busy where I put considerable effort into planning cycling routes to avoid section which feel risky in cars, and a real hazard by bike. In my opinion the council here has recently demonstated some really poor traffic management. People complaining about vehicle speeds and rare accidents in specific sections, so the council dropped some 70 dual carridgeways down to 50, 60, and even 30 on an extended approach to roundabouts. A spattering of 20s have been thrown out too. All this has really achieved here is there is now a larger body of people who speed because largely because the limits are poorly thought out and there has been no inforcement that I have seen of anything less than the new 50 limits. So the drivers sharper reaction to speed limits has been dulled to the point that they are nearly meaningless, and partlicually on the 30 approach to a roundabout on a dual carriageway you feel a hazard by maintaining the set speed. Every time I cycle at 20 in the 20 limit near me I am overtaken unless trafgic conditions prevent it.
If we were to get a blanket 20 around here it would be largely ignored and feel painful to drive. The larger dual carridge way sections would feel very slow at 20. So in reality the council would have to put up a load of 30mph sections for trunk roads etc to keep any measure of adherance to the 20s where they are percieved to be needed.
Alas the more measures that are applied like the 20mph limits the stronger the argument gets for driverless cars. Joe & Jane Bloggs are too me-me-I-I to be trusted to drive well.
For many rural areas this may make sense, but I feel it becomes less sensible in heavy urban areas.
The general public have shown themselves to be incapable of adhearing to limits were there is little threat of prosecution. Political will to address this is limited as sections of the political spectrum will portray any strengthening of speed policing as an afront to personal liberties and an attack on drivers. Fix this first, so the general public largely adhere to limits and slow for hazard sections. If public pressure doesn't work ensure punishments for speeding are
probable rather than rare. That way a 20 limit will limit to a cruise/peak speed of 20 rather than more like 30.
Personally I feel this is indicative of a general failure in managing driving attitudes, and indeed how driving is policed. I feel in many places if drivers peak speeds were capped at 30 in a 30 zone and dropped to ~20 for high risk areas near schools or areas with lots of obstructions there would be very little increase in overall safety in setting 20 limits.
Alas that's an idealistic view and a sizable proportion of the driving public's anxety and stress levels are inversely proportional to speed. Happy to do 90+ on busy wet motorways and 40+ in 30s. These stress levels increasing when they feel they have been unduely delaid either by unreasobably low limits or traffic.
I live in a region of St Helens, Merseyside, between Liverpool & Manchester. Urban and busy where I put considerable effort into planning cycling routes to avoid section which feel risky in cars, and a real hazard by bike. In my opinion the council here has recently demonstated some really poor traffic management. People complaining about vehicle speeds and rare accidents in specific sections, so the council dropped some 70 dual carridgeways down to 50, 60, and even 30 on an extended approach to roundabouts. A spattering of 20s have been thrown out too. All this has really achieved here is there is now a larger body of people who speed because largely because the limits are poorly thought out and there has been no inforcement that I have seen of anything less than the new 50 limits. So the drivers sharper reaction to speed limits has been dulled to the point that they are nearly meaningless, and partlicually on the 30 approach to a roundabout on a dual carriageway you feel a hazard by maintaining the set speed. Every time I cycle at 20 in the 20 limit near me I am overtaken unless trafgic conditions prevent it.
If we were to get a blanket 20 around here it would be largely ignored and feel painful to drive. The larger dual carridge way sections would feel very slow at 20. So in reality the council would have to put up a load of 30mph sections for trunk roads etc to keep any measure of adherance to the 20s where they are percieved to be needed.
Alas the more measures that are applied like the 20mph limits the stronger the argument gets for driverless cars. Joe & Jane Bloggs are too me-me-I-I to be trusted to drive well.
Re: Default 20mph for Wales
In fact the enforcement of speed limits - including punishment for breaking them - were much more commonplace in Wales (well, in the extensive parts of West Wales I used to drive through regularly) than in Ingurland (where I abided until 7 years ago). Every village with its typically 30 mph limit signs, along many main routes in West Wales, had speed cameras; and these were operational and employed to catch and fine the speeders.WesBrooks wrote: 30 Jun 2026, 6:48am I suspect 20 limits initially worked better in Wales for similar reasons average speed limit sections work well too, fear of prosecution. There was - perhaps an urban myth - suggestion that speeding was more strictly policed in Wales than elsewhere. Once people were over the initial unfamiliarity of the slow speed things settle.
Being one of those rare moderns inclined to drive with care and attention, I generally drive below the speed limits, mostly because I dread how I'd feel being responsible for killing or permanently crushing someone else; or even their pussycat or favourite hedgehog. I've never been had-up for any road rule breaking. But many others were fined in fairly large numbers, especially the visiting tourists who were used to breaking speed limits in Ingurland and not being bothered with even a tut let alone a fine.
Sometimes I went to Wales on holiday to a large house in which various family members congregated, with a number of cars used to get there. Even when we all drove in a sort of loose convoy (so those unfamiliar with the routes could avoid getting thoroughly lost) it was amazing how, despite following my careful limit-obeying lead, many managed to break the speed limits and get fined. One such managed to do so three times in a single journey; then did it again two times on the way back!
How to fix motornormativity? It is, as you intimate, the obvious thing - the root of the problem - that needs to be dealt with. But the inertia of motornormativity attitudes and behaviours in what's left of our society is enormous. The beliefs involved that incline many to think of themselves as some sort of aristocrat when driving seem to be permanently etched into the brains of many, who seem incapable of realising just how dangerous are their behaviours in a car. 1700 deaths and 30,000 serious injuries each year in Blightedland alone, with a vast associated set of financial and emotional costs associated within the families and infrastructure services affected.WesBrooks wrote: The general public have shown themselves to be incapable of adhering to limits were there is little threat of prosecution. Political will to address this is limited as sections of the political spectrum will portray any strengthening of speed policing as an afront to personal liberties and an attack on drivers. Fix this first, so the general public largely adhere to limits and slow for hazard sections. If public pressure doesn't work ensure punishments for speeding are
probable rather than rare.
It would be practical, financially and otherwise, to employ far more traffic police, tech crime detectors and court infrastructure to prosecute motorised law breakers. The costs could be recouped via the fines, until changed attitudes and beliefs could see better driving behaviours and a shrinkage of the policing and prosecuting as offense levels dropped in the face of it becoming a social and moral sin to drive stupidly rather than a clever-dick mode adopted wholesale by smirking clever dicks admired by other would-be clever dicks.
What's needed are some brave politicians with a state-nanny or thousand to let loose on the infantile drivists. If only.
Solving the political problem is the real isse. The motoring lobby has a very loud shout and lots of pals in the mass media as well as in the courts. How to get past this immense resitance to sensible changes in traffic policing is the real issue
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
John Maynard Keynes
Re: Default 20mph for Wales
Basically it is tough to maintain concentration when the rate of stimulus drops. It takes very little concentration to drive a car at 20 - or 30 - along any but the most extreme course. Conversely when riding it takes considerable effort to maintain speeds above 20.
Drivers need to be continuing to check, and compensate for potential hazards at a similar rate as they do for test situations. People often forget about all other chalanges not related to navigating a vehicle around stationary objects.
30 feels like nothing in a car until you need to swerve to avoid the toddler who's just charged off a drive, or more likely a ball which is highly likely to be followed by a kid goal orientated on getting said ball rather than in that instance staying alive.
Compulsory skid pan time and time in bike saddle for all able learners would help hugely.
Conversely, improve public transit. Make busses confortable to sit in for more than 5 minutes and for 99% of the population rather than just enough leg room for Mrs Average.
As an aside I think it's time for ultralight cars. More smaller vehicles would likely slow people too. My first car (25yr old at the time) was a, 850kg VW beetle. Similar size IC engine vehicles are 1500kg now.
Drivers need to be continuing to check, and compensate for potential hazards at a similar rate as they do for test situations. People often forget about all other chalanges not related to navigating a vehicle around stationary objects.
30 feels like nothing in a car until you need to swerve to avoid the toddler who's just charged off a drive, or more likely a ball which is highly likely to be followed by a kid goal orientated on getting said ball rather than in that instance staying alive.
Compulsory skid pan time and time in bike saddle for all able learners would help hugely.
Conversely, improve public transit. Make busses confortable to sit in for more than 5 minutes and for 99% of the population rather than just enough leg room for Mrs Average.
As an aside I think it's time for ultralight cars. More smaller vehicles would likely slow people too. My first car (25yr old at the time) was a, 850kg VW beetle. Similar size IC engine vehicles are 1500kg now.
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cycle tramp
- Posts: 5696
- Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm
Re: Default 20mph for Wales
No, its really not that hard to maintain concentration, because as a compentent road user its expected that you plan ahead and not rely on any stimulus.... indeed the fact that some one needs to rely on stimulus suggests that they should get a refund from their driving instructor or perhaps not be on the road...WesBrooks wrote: 30 Jun 2026, 7:54am Basically it is tough to maintain concentration when the rate of stimulus drops. It takes very little concentration to drive a car at 20 - or 30 - along any but the most extreme course. Conversely when riding it takes considerable effort to maintain speeds above 20.
Drivers need to be continuing to check, and compensate for potential hazards at a similar rate as they do for test situations. People often forget about all other chalanges not related to navigating a vehicle around stationary objects.
30 feels like nothing in a car until you need to swerve to avoid the toddler who's just charged off a drive.
Part of planning ahead is succesful risk assessment so if you do see any uncompanied child, its off the accelerator, covering both clutch and use brake to check your speed until you are clear of any risk.
Indeed given the amount of risk assessment that are performed whilst driving any urban street even 20 feels too fast and i'm likely to be at 15mph just to ensure that i've spotted every danger.
If you're doing it right driving takes all your concerntration, end of, period, no arguements.. and at 30 mph if anyone steps out infront of you then they are going to feel alot more than 'nothing' they are going to be in a world of pain and confusion and if it goes really badly so will their friends and family...
'Everybody is a genius - but if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree it will live its whole life believing it is stupid' Albert Einstein
Re: Default 20mph for Wales
You've miss interpretted my intended message, and in doing so agreed with me any how.
I'm saying it takes very little concentration to drive a car along a fixed course merely avoiding stationary obsticals and predictably moving traffic. What seperates an adiquate driver from a bad one is they drive for what might happen, rather than what is happening right now. Bad drivers fill the percieved low cognative load with planning their day, lighting cigs, talking on a phone, browsing social media etc under the dellusion that they are highly competent drivers. In reality they have just gambled on the likely probability that nothing untoward will happen and won. Alas they have far less safety margin in what can happen before a collision is unavoidble compared to an adiquate driver.
You could for example drive without a seat belt with no issue for 99%+ of the time with no issue, but the safety campaigns have successfully changed what is socially acceptable. The same needs to happen for managing your speed. I haven't seen much *n that regard since the adverts saying most pedestrins survive a collision at 30, whereas most do not at 40. Not seen those adverts for a while, merely a focus on drink driving.
I'd go so far as saying the majority of 30mph roads are safe to traverse at 30 with my previously mentioned exceptions to high levels of hazards that may for example happen around schools and dense residential areas. I am at least a highly experienced adiquate driver (at least for someone who hasn't driven professsionally) who slows down for these additional hazard zones. That is afterall what the 20 limits try to force.
A big issue for slapping up more 20s is the perception will be that the 30 zones are deemed less risk than the 20s and so some folks attention will drop. They will also be more inclined to sit on the limit more as to them they wrongly conclude if the local council thought the area is risky they would have implemented the 20 limit.
Dropping speed limits without reasonable enforcement is largely somewhere between sticky plaster solution and bit of political spin for a councillor to brag about their safety efforts. Essentially it only caps the speed of those already willing to follow limits, not those already breaking them. At best a 20 sign signals an area of high hazard level to a driver new to the area. Others would already be aware of the hazards and choosing their speed appropriately.
Unfortunately road design needs to account fornthe lowest level of probable driver competence. This right now is painfully low.
I'm saying it takes very little concentration to drive a car along a fixed course merely avoiding stationary obsticals and predictably moving traffic. What seperates an adiquate driver from a bad one is they drive for what might happen, rather than what is happening right now. Bad drivers fill the percieved low cognative load with planning their day, lighting cigs, talking on a phone, browsing social media etc under the dellusion that they are highly competent drivers. In reality they have just gambled on the likely probability that nothing untoward will happen and won. Alas they have far less safety margin in what can happen before a collision is unavoidble compared to an adiquate driver.
You could for example drive without a seat belt with no issue for 99%+ of the time with no issue, but the safety campaigns have successfully changed what is socially acceptable. The same needs to happen for managing your speed. I haven't seen much *n that regard since the adverts saying most pedestrins survive a collision at 30, whereas most do not at 40. Not seen those adverts for a while, merely a focus on drink driving.
I'd go so far as saying the majority of 30mph roads are safe to traverse at 30 with my previously mentioned exceptions to high levels of hazards that may for example happen around schools and dense residential areas. I am at least a highly experienced adiquate driver (at least for someone who hasn't driven professsionally) who slows down for these additional hazard zones. That is afterall what the 20 limits try to force.
A big issue for slapping up more 20s is the perception will be that the 30 zones are deemed less risk than the 20s and so some folks attention will drop. They will also be more inclined to sit on the limit more as to them they wrongly conclude if the local council thought the area is risky they would have implemented the 20 limit.
Dropping speed limits without reasonable enforcement is largely somewhere between sticky plaster solution and bit of political spin for a councillor to brag about their safety efforts. Essentially it only caps the speed of those already willing to follow limits, not those already breaking them. At best a 20 sign signals an area of high hazard level to a driver new to the area. Others would already be aware of the hazards and choosing their speed appropriately.
Unfortunately road design needs to account fornthe lowest level of probable driver competence. This right now is painfully low.
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cycle tramp
- Posts: 5696
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales
I think a cursory glance at something like google maps, or find my address will provide evidence that outside of Wales most 30 mph limit areas include high percentages of dense residential areas where one could also expect children, the eldery, vehicles exiting drive ways, and line of sights blocked by parked vehicles...WesBrooks wrote: 30 Jun 2026, 10:25am
I'd go so far as saying the majority of 30mph roads are safe to traverse at 30 with my previously mentioned exceptions to high levels of hazards that may for example happen around schools and dense residential areas. I am at least a highly experienced adiquate driver (at least for someone who hasn't driven professsionally) who slows down for these additional hazard zones. That is afterall what the 20 limits try to force.
..the estate in which i live is a 30 mph area, which considering my road is somewhat shorter than the breaking distance of that speed, is lunancy...
Last edited by cycle tramp on 30 Jun 2026, 11:24am, edited 2 times in total.
'Everybody is a genius - but if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree it will live its whole life believing it is stupid' Albert Einstein
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cycle tramp
- Posts: 5696
- Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm
Re: Default 20mph for Wales
No, drivers should be competent to drive safely on the existing network with the threat that if they are unable to, they will lose that right.WesBrooks wrote: 30 Jun 2026, 10:25am Unfortunately road design needs to account fornthe lowest level of probable driver competence. This right now is painfully low.
'Everybody is a genius - but if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree it will live its whole life believing it is stupid' Albert Einstein
Re: Default 20mph for Wales
You're just arguing for the sake of it here and risking contradicting any argument in favour of any 20mph limit.
"...with my previously mentioned high levels of hazard" == "high risk areas near schools or areas with lots of obstructions"
By obstructions I am referring to things that signifanantly hazard perceptions. non exclusive EGs:
* Roads with lots of parking that could easily hide pedestrians/limit their views.
* Terraced streets with fron doors right on paths with narrow roads.
* Blind turns, bridges, high hedges
Etc.
Around me for example there frequent stretches of 30mph that are near comparatively few hazards, or only in an area of high hazard due to stationary traffic (visiable for over 1/4 mile in advance) that backs up beyond the 30 zone anyway.
"Unfortunately road design needs to account for the lowest level of probable driver competence. This right now is painfully low."
By probable I am refering to the average competancy of drivers rather than the extremes. It would be negligent to design a road system that has no scope for user error. Likewise if roads are designed for perfect driving then there is clearly no need for speed cameras, red light cameras etc. Money is wasted on them if your only consideration is perfect drivers.
Sure riding is nicer in 20mph limits that are functional, but the limit is only a fraction of the puzzle. There needs to be effective and proportional deterants to transgretions in driving standards, and it should be considered along with other measures, as after all good drivers will already be doing ~20mph or less in high risk areas anyway.
"...with my previously mentioned high levels of hazard" == "high risk areas near schools or areas with lots of obstructions"
By obstructions I am referring to things that signifanantly hazard perceptions. non exclusive EGs:
* Roads with lots of parking that could easily hide pedestrians/limit their views.
* Terraced streets with fron doors right on paths with narrow roads.
* Blind turns, bridges, high hedges
Etc.
Around me for example there frequent stretches of 30mph that are near comparatively few hazards, or only in an area of high hazard due to stationary traffic (visiable for over 1/4 mile in advance) that backs up beyond the 30 zone anyway.
"Unfortunately road design needs to account for the lowest level of probable driver competence. This right now is painfully low."
By probable I am refering to the average competancy of drivers rather than the extremes. It would be negligent to design a road system that has no scope for user error. Likewise if roads are designed for perfect driving then there is clearly no need for speed cameras, red light cameras etc. Money is wasted on them if your only consideration is perfect drivers.
Sure riding is nicer in 20mph limits that are functional, but the limit is only a fraction of the puzzle. There needs to be effective and proportional deterants to transgretions in driving standards, and it should be considered along with other measures, as after all good drivers will already be doing ~20mph or less in high risk areas anyway.
Last edited by WesBrooks on 30 Jun 2026, 1:10pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Default 20mph for Wales
How I love this forum some days!
This is particularly entertaining:
"A big issue for slapping up more 20s is the perception will be that the 30 zones are deemed less risk than the 20s and so some folks attention will drop. They will also be more inclined to sit on the limit more as to them they wrongly conclude if the local council thought the area is risky they would have implemented the 20 limit."
So reducing a speed limit on one road makes the other roads more dangerous - planners, pay attention!
This is particularly entertaining:
"A big issue for slapping up more 20s is the perception will be that the 30 zones are deemed less risk than the 20s and so some folks attention will drop. They will also be more inclined to sit on the limit more as to them they wrongly conclude if the local council thought the area is risky they would have implemented the 20 limit."
So reducing a speed limit on one road makes the other roads more dangerous - planners, pay attention!
Last edited by mattheus on 30 Jun 2026, 1:51pm, edited 1 time in total.
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rareposter
- Posts: 4649
- Joined: 27 Aug 2014, 2:40pm
Re: Default 20mph for Wales
It can be tough to maintain concentration in low stimulus environments but you don't find train drivers or aircraft pilots scrolling through their phone mid-cruise because it's all got a bit dull outside. On the contrary, there are specific drills, checks and tasks to carry out - the challenge is that no-one has bothered to remind car drivers of this (and there are also no further tests once you pass aged 17/18 in a Nissan Micra before being let loose on the road in a 2-ton SUV).WesBrooks wrote: 30 Jun 2026, 7:54am Basically it is tough to maintain concentration when the rate of stimulus drops. It takes very little concentration to drive a car at 20 - or 30 - along any but the most extreme course. Conversely when riding it takes considerable effort to maintain speeds above 20.
Again, not disagreeing with that comment that drivers need to be continuing to check things but the issue is that modern cars make it very easy to essentially "switch off" for a bit (to the extent that many cars now come with driver warning aids to monitor for such things) and there are no reports for such actions and no real consequences, short of actually injuring someone. And since most mistakes (and most deliberate actions like speeding,mobile phone use etc) don't actually result in any injuries to anyone, drivers become tuned out to it all. Oh I've always made a couple of calls while in the car,, it's always been fine. Oh I always do 40 through this 30, it's always been fine....WesBrooks wrote: 30 Jun 2026, 7:54am Drivers need to be continuing to check, and compensate for potential hazards at a similar rate as they do for test situations.
Until the one fateful day where it isn't.
Last edited by rareposter on 30 Jun 2026, 1:32pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Default 20mph for Wales
Agree with you there. I was only saying it was tough, not that it is excusable to fill the tine with other things.
]Trains are a good and topical example for comparison now. Billions have been spent trying to make the system near fool proof and all people involved are highly trained. The drivers only have one degree of freedom, only how fast to travel and despite all this and trains that should stop themselves after signals past at danger things can some how still go wrong.
Keeping up the discussion on road safety is lways valid, but elimination or any risk is unreasonable. Freak accidents can happen, but at the same time I believe most effort should be made to utilise existing CCTV feeding into AI agents to highlight poor driving to be reviewed by humans before suitable warnings and actions.
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rareposter
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- Joined: 27 Aug 2014, 2:40pm
Re: Default 20mph for Wales
As an aside (but back to the 20mph default topic) I was in west Wales last week and found exactly as you describe - most drivers were extremely considerate, in spite of the far larger than usual numbers of cyclists around the place due to the National Road Race Championships.Cugel wrote: 15 Jun 2026, 7:58am Although I haven't ridden or driven in Anglesey, my now 7-year experience of living, cycling and driving in mid-west Wales tells me that drivers are generally better mannered in this part of the world than my 70 year experience in various parts of Ingurland informs me,
Most of the driving through 20mph areas tended to be at or near 20 as well, it was genuinely rare to see anyone obviously thrashing it through! I guess once it becomes a cultural norm, it becomes largely self-enforcing. Much like going to the pub and not having an alocholic drink was once seen as something to be ridiculed for, now it's quite normal and expected.