Default 20mph for Wales

[mattheus]

I love reading wibble from self-appointed road-safety experts.

If you don't like the views favouring 20mph limits, go look at the research:

https://www.ecosia.org/search?q=20mph+s ... opensearch

Knock yourself out!

[Cugel]

It can be tough to maintain concentration in low stimulus environments but you don't find train drivers or aircraft pilots scrolling through their phone mid-cruise because it's all got a bit dull outside. On the contrary, there are specific drills, checks and tasks to carry out - the challenge is that no-one has bothered to remind car drivers of this (and there are also no further tests once you pass aged 17/18 in a Nissan Micra before being let loose on the road in a 2-ton SUV).

Drivers need to be continuing to check, and compensate for potential hazards at a similar rate as they do for test situations.

Again, not disagreeing with that comment that drivers need to be continuing to check things but the issue is that modern cars make it very easy to essentially "switch off" for a bit (to the extent that many cars now come with driver warning aids to monitor for such things) and there are no reports for such actions and no real consequences, short of actually injuring someone. And since most mistakes (and most deliberate actions like speeding,mobile phone use etc) don't actually result in any injuries to anyone, drivers become tuned out to it all. Oh I've always made a couple of calls while in the car,, it's always been fine. Oh I always do 40 through this 30, it's always been fine....

Until the one fateful day where it isn't.

For use of technologies where incompetence can result in serious injuries to those other than or besides the user, there are generally not just rigorous tests for competence but also regular checks of that competence, perhaps including also some formal training about new features of the tech arising. You mention railway train drivers and aircraft pilots in the context of travel, as examples.

There are similar competancy inducing & testing processes for drivers of cars and other road transports but the similarity is small, as you intimate, since the test for competence is not that rigorous; and nor is the training enabling the passing of that test. There's no procedure at all for checking that what small competence acquired is maintained; and no process for ensuring drivers are educated and tested for new driving innovations, in the vehicle or on the roads.

The difference is highlighted precisely by the great contrast in the number of deaths and serious injuries concerning these transportation modes: very low indeed for trains & planes; ten of thousands per year in Britain alone with over one million deaths per year world-wide from traffic "accidents" and gawd knows how much serious and life-changing maiming.

***********
One perspective has it that such "accidents" on the road are just the price of human nature, with our in-built incompetence at so many things. Personally I have a different perspective, which admits this incompetence but suggests that this demands that driving of a car be much more rigorously controlled and checked, with large percentages of the population not allowed to drive in the same way that large percentages of the population are not allowed to fly passenger planes or drive railway trains; or own guns; or fix gas appliances; or build and operate Ferris wheels.

Motornormativity has grown up as a result of the role of the car in making greedy manufacturers abd sellers loadsa money by pandering to some of the worst aspects of human nature in providing a motorised merkin of vast power and momentum with which to joust about, to demonstrate some sort of infantile status and devil-may-care. Such silly antics should be confined to race tracks for the dangerous dafties. Time there was a war on motorists, really; or at least on their dangerous habits of mind and action.

[cycle tramp]

You're just arguing for the sake of it here and risking contradicting any argument in favour of any 20mph limit.

"...with my previously mentioned high levels of hazard" == "high risk areas near schools or areas with lots of obstructions"

By obstructions I am referring to things that signifanantly hazard perceptions. non exclusive EGs:
* Roads with lots of parking that could easily hide pedestrians/limit their views.
* Terraced streets with fron doors right on paths with narrow roads.
* Blind turns, bridges, high hedges
Etc.

Around me for example there frequent stretches of 30mph that are near comparatively few hazards, or only in an area of high hazard due to stationary traffic (visiable for over 1/4 mile in advance) that backs up beyond the 30 zones.

I'm in favour of 20 mph limits, our point of contention appears to be our perception of the number of roads affected.. certainly in my local area, if a blanket speed reduction was made to 20mph for all urban and residential locations, i can only count a handful of roads for which a 30mph limit might still be retained, rather than 'frequent stretches'

The 20 mile an hour limit should be seen more than a blunt mechanism by which we attempt to reduce road causalities. It's possibly the opening tool through which 15 minute cities begin to flourish.. and a chance where instead of scurrying home to live independant lives, we share our lives with those around us and rebuild our communities

[robing]

There is no logic to the 20 limit in Wales.Go for any drive in rural Wales and some hamlets will be 20, while other built up areas may be 30 or even 40. And it's constantly changing, so you to the aware . Maybe that's the point?

[Bowedw]

Unfortunately side roads/lanes are not being monitored despite being 20 mph, The main offenders seem to be mothers bringing their children to the Primary school, it does not seem to work as people are rebelling against common sense and face book sites with 20 is not plenty seem to bring out the worse in people.

[pwa]

Unfortunately side roads/lanes are not being monitored despite being 20 mph, The main offenders seem to be mothers bringing their children to the Primary school, it does not seem to work as people are rebelling against common sense and face book sites with 20 is not plenty seem to bring out the worse in people.

My own experience, as someone living in Wales, is that the changes have brought speeds down in built-up areas, but not as much as some might like. I get the feeling on a lot of roads that people who used to travel at a little bit over the previous thirty limit now travel at a little below thirty now that the limit has gone down to twenty. So not complying, but going slower than they used to. I think that is a gain worth having.

[Pete Owens]

There is no logic to the 20 limit in Wales.

The logic is in the 30% reduction in the rate of collisions, injuries and deaths.
20mph is the rational limit for built up areas based on what humans are capable of dealing with.

Go for any drive in rural Wales and some hamlets will be 20, while other built up areas may be 30 or even 40. And it's constantly changing, so you to the aware . Maybe that's the point?

All that has changed is the default limit (the guidelines for what is an appropriate speed limit on a particular road are actually very similar for Wales and England). This is appropriate for the vast majority of urban streets so by changing the default Wales has achieved a vastly more consistent approach to setting speed limits. Now there will always be circumstances where a different speed limit may be appropriate so there always is the ability to set localised exceptions. And in this respect, Wales is no different to England. The problem in England is that since virtually every road is in need of a local reduction to 20 mph it is taking a very long time to get round to changing the limits on a street by street basis - so the limits on English streets tend to be set by political considerations and local campaigning rather than any consistent application of principle.

You mention 40mph limits, but these are all local exceptions, whether the default is 20, 30, 60 or 70. Changing the default from 30 to 20 will have had no effect whatsoever on roads with 40mph limits.

When the list of exceptions was published at the start of the implementation, I took the trouble to map the speed limits of all the urban A & B roads in Wales on Open Street Map. In pretty much all the cases I could see the logic for the exception. In most cases it involved setting the limit at the first house in the town, rather than the end of the street lighting. Then there were urban expressways - which are designed so that pedestrians and cyclists do not need to use them. There are also industrial estate roads which tend not to have any roadside development.

Even most of the changes one year in, were things that had been missed during the initial implementation.
Though there do seem to be a handful of inappropriate 30mph roads now. Far better than the situation in England, where most roads still have inappropriate limits.

[Pete Owens]

It is interesting to compare the approach in Scotland, where the policy is also for the normal urban speed limit to be 20mph. But, rather than changing the default they are systematically changing limits on a town by town basis. Borders Region implemented it off their own initiative while Wales was thinking about it. Edinburgh also did it a while ago. Now they seem to be doing it region by region; Highland Region seems to have completed the job and others are getting round to it. They will get there in the end - but hundreds of Scots will suffer death and serious injury during the long drawn out process of implementing a settled policy.

[Bmblbzzz]

Well said there by Pete.

[Cugel]

When the list of exceptions was published at the start of the implementation, I took the trouble to map the speed limits of all the urban A & B roads in Wales on Open Street Map. In pretty much all the cases I could see the logic for the exception. In most cases it involved setting the limit at the first house in the town, rather than the end of the street lighting. Then there were urban expressways - which are designed so that pedestrians and cyclists do not need to use them. There are also industrial estate roads which tend not to have any roadside development.

Even most of the changes one year in, were things that had been missed during the initial implementation.
Though there do seem to be a handful of inappropriate 30mph roads now. Far better than the situation in England, where most roads still have inappropriate limits.

Your mapping of Welsh speed limits seems to have missed rather a lot of completely unjustified anomalies. There are many, many 40mph stretches remaining through areas dense with driveways, gateways, junctions, blind bends and roads down which people have to walk from one house to another with no pavement or even a verge. They often have a yellow sign or few along them stating "N causalities between 2021 - 24" and dozens of "ARAF/SLOW" road markings along them, completely contradicting the global 40mph limit (or "instruction to go 40 mph plus a bit", as many drivers seem to treat such limit signs).

These roads have always been dangerous and have remained so, with the feeble excuse that, "They're a main route from some important A to a similar B, so shouldn't slow traffic". Yet other such main routes with less hazards have been set to 20 mph; and often with sleeping policemen to enforce the slow-down.

***********
The problem seems to be that various small bodies of those with the authority to do so have been allowed to make arbitrary decisions about speed limits, here and there. This was a mistake, pandering to "local democracy". In practice, it's not only left many roads with dangerously high limits but encouraged the yob-minded drivists to ignore lower speed limits on similar stretches of roads where they've been sensibly reset.

[Pete Owens]

When the list of exceptions was published at the start of the implementation, I took the trouble to map the speed limits of all the urban A & B roads in Wales on Open Street Map. In pretty much all the cases I could see the logic for the exception. In most cases it involved setting the limit at the first house in the town, rather than the end of the street lighting. Then there were urban expressways - which are designed so that pedestrians and cyclists do not need to use them. There are also industrial estate roads which tend not to have any roadside development.

Even most of the changes one year in, were things that had been missed during the initial implementation.
Though there do seem to be a handful of inappropriate 30mph roads now. Far better than the situation in England, where most roads still have inappropriate limits.

Your mapping of Welsh speed limits seems to have missed rather a lot of completely unjustified anomalies.

If you point out the specific example(s) you think I have missed then let me know and I will correct it.

There are many, many 40mph stretches

As I pointed out in the post you are replying to:

"...40mph limits, but these are all local exceptions, whether the default is 20, 30, 60 or 70. Changing the default from 30 to 20 will have had no effect whatsoever on roads with 40mph limits."

Changing the default limit has had NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on 40 mph roads. They were already an exception and subject to a local speed limit when the default was 30mph - they remain so now the default is 20mph.

Now I agree that many 40mph roads are unjustified, but that has nothing to do with which side of the Severn Bridge you happen to be on.

[robing]

There is no logic to the 20 limit in Wales.

The logic is in the 30% reduction in the rate of collisions, injuries and deaths.
20mph is the rational limit for built up areas based on what humans are capable of dealing with.

Go for any drive in rural Wales and some hamlets will be 20, while other built up areas may be 30 or even 40. And it's constantly changing, so you to the aware . Maybe that's the point?

All that has changed is the default limit (the guidelines for what is an appropriate speed limit on a particular road are actually very similar for Wales and England). This is appropriate for the vast majority of urban streets so by changing the default Wales has achieved a vastly more consistent approach to setting speed limits. Now there will always be circumstances where a different speed limit may be appropriate so there always is the ability to set localised exceptions. And in this respect, Wales is no different to England. The problem in England is that since virtually every road is in need of a local reduction to 20 mph it is taking a very long time to get round to changing the limits on a street by street basis - so the limits on English streets tend to be set by political considerations and local campaigning rather than any consistent application of principle.

You mention 40mph limits, but these are all local exceptions, whether the default is 20, 30, 60 or 70. Changing the default from 30 to 20 will have had no effect whatsoever on roads with 40mph limits.

When the list of exceptions was published at the start of the implementation, I took the trouble to map the speed limits of all the urban A & B roads in Wales on Open Street Map. In pretty much all the cases I could see the logic for the exception. In most cases it involved setting the limit at the first house in the town, rather than the end of the street lighting. Then there were urban expressways - which are designed so that pedestrians and cyclists do not need to use them. There are also industrial estate roads which tend not to have any roadside development.

Even most of the changes one year in, were things that had been missed during the initial implementation.
Though there do seem to be a handful of inappropriate 30mph roads now. Far better than the situation in England, where most roads still have inappropriate limits.

Firstly maybe the reduction in casualties is correlation not causation. Could be all sorts of other factors - eg fewer cars on roads due to increased costs of running a car. I know loads of people who have given up their vehicle.

Secondly what happened to the green cross code? So many pedestrians just step out without looking glued to their phones.