Default 20mph for Wales

[mjr]

I can't see why local (on vehicle) databases that periodically batch update then speed limiting becomes based on GPS location. Such databases might currently be imperfect but were they to become a recognised speed limiting system then it could become an obligation/requirement on Highways to accurately maintain such databases.

And do you feel that Norfolk Highways currently fulfill their other legal obligations/requirements to maintain highway surfaces, and speed limits signs, control development so it is not a danger to safety of vulnerable highway users and manage the network in line with DfT guidance? If not, you'll understand why I think relying on Highways departments would be unworkable.

Doubly so if you've ever enjoyed the buck-passing and micturating-contests about exactly where Norfolk Highways meet National Highways: it's quite likely it could result in short stretches of road marked "unlimited" across those boundaries!

[Albrecht]

What does he imagine the other 75% are going to be powered by after 2030 when the sale of new petrol & diesel cars will be banned.

We will have to wait and see if it happens. I wouldn't put a bet on it.

Based on feedback from acquaintances re getting charging or accesing re-charging points on the road, e.g. at service station, the implications of it would be worth discussing.

Strikes me it's going to make the upheaval of Brext and Covid look like Bank Holiday outings, with a large swathe of society just being driven off the road. Excuse the pun.

The viability of the Government’s plan to ban the sale of new petrol and diesel cars by 2030 has been called into question by a group of MPs, who say the transition represents a “huge challenge” for the country, and that the departments responsible for it have “lacked a clear, published plan” to set out how it will happen.

The criticism comes from the Public Accounts Committee (PAC), which evaluates the effectiveness and value of Government proposals and services. The PAC is made up of 15 MPs, eight of whom are Conservatives, although the chair is Labour’s Meg Hillier.

The PAC report says that although the Government has set “ambitious targets” for the transition, there are still big hurdles to overcome, including increasing the uptake of electric cars among buyers, lowering their cost, and upgrading the UK’s charging network.

The report notes that rural areas are in danger of getting “left behind during this transition”.

The report says: “We are not convinced that Government has sufficiently thought through how the charging infrastructure will expand at the pace required to meet the ambitious timetable to phase out petrol and diesel vehicles.”

[mjr]

Based on feedback from acquaintances re getting charging or accesing re-charging points on the road, e.g. at service station, the implications of it would be worth discussing.

It's being discussed at viewtopic.php?t=148970

[Psamathe]

I can't see why local (on vehicle) databases that periodically batch update then speed limiting becomes based on GPS location. Such databases might currently be imperfect but were they to become a recognised speed limiting system then it could become an obligation/requirement on Highways to accurately maintain such databases.

:lol: And do you feel that Norfolk Highways currently fulfill their other legal obligations/requirements to maintain highway surfaces, and speed limits signs, control development so it is not a danger to safety of vulnerable highway users and manage the network in line with DfT guidance? If not, you'll understand why I think relying on Highways departments would be unworkable.
...

I agree but Norfolk Highways is a soluble situation - sack the management and get in people with even a tiny bit of common sense. I see it as politicians failing to put in place suitable services (which applies to far more than Norfolk Highways).

I suspect that once a few people get to court and get their offence dismissed because of Norfolk Highways failings somebody will recognise those failings and time for "special measures". But then maybe I'm being over optimistic. It really does get disappointing when straightforward existing technology can't be used because of administrative failings.

I do still hope that Norfolk Highways is the big exception in the country (without evidence I can't believe others can be such a disaster).

Ian

[mjr]

I suspect that once a few people get to court and get their offence dismissed because of Norfolk Highways failings somebody will recognise those failings and time for "special measures". But then maybe I'm being over optimistic. It really does get disappointing when straightforward existing technology can't be used because of administrative failings.

Very over optimistic. Like in the fatal case I linked, it won't get to court. Police or CPS simply won't move forwards. So usually very little publicity beyond the local tabloids, and no lasting significant change at County Hall.

I do still hope that Norfolk Highways is the big exception in the country (without evidence I can't believe others can be such a disaster).

Sadly, I've lived elsewhere and KLWNBUG's area is split between four highway authorities (plus two National Highways). I think Norfolk aren't unusual: too few people trying to do too much with too little. Lincolnshire seem worse!

[Albrecht]

I can't see why local (on vehicle) databases that periodically batch update then speed limiting becomes based on GPS location. Such databases might currently be imperfect but were they to become a recognised speed limiting system then it could become an obligation/requirement on Highways to accurately maintain such databases.

I tend to agree with jdsk that autonomous zone sensing will come about but why would it be the responsibility of local governments? It would have to be a dedicated national system. It really already exists c/o everyone's mobile phones and don't young drivers have to submit to black boxes recording cornering, braking and top speeds? Hell, even those rent-a-bikes have SIM cards and trackers.

Of course, people will cry "Big Brother" but I'll take the Pastor Martin Niemöller position ("First they came for the …"), until the government starts demanding retrofitting them to 60s Raleighs.

However, IC, EV, or hybrid ... you're still going to rev and speed limit engines and gear them to make them happy running at your declared speeds because it will take a generation or two before the hot rodders cool down and accept working out their frustrations on track days instead.

How do the tracking systems on cars currently work and who monitors or records the data?

I hired one and it was all set up with camera, communication channels, a distress button, and everything. I kept triggering it trying to find the dash light to read a paper map. What they told me was that it constantly recorded and sent data back, but to the insurance company. Or, perhaps it was just looping the last x minutes, and then automatically sending it back in case of an accident?

It sounded awful. Poor kids growing up under that.

I was thinking of buying a pre-1982 motorcycle just to circumvent all that and emissions regs, but can see vintage IC vehicles ultimately only being permitted to run at such authorised, off road events.

Like Steam Tractors today.

[pwa]

.....I was thinking of buying a pre-1982 motorcycle just to circumvent all that and emissions regs, but can see vintage IC vehicles ultimately only being permitted to run at such authorised, off road events.

Like Steam Tractors today.

How long has it been since traction engines were "current technology"? And you can still drive one on the roads today. As soon as a vehicle is seen as "classic" it tends to evade future requirements such as seat belts and emissions limits. If you happen to have a 1980s Ferrari in your garage, the chances are that you will continue to be able to use it long after selling new ICE cars is ended, but you may have to search around a bit more for fuel as the decades pass.

Top tip. For anyone wanting a good long term financial investment, get yourself a large storage facility and fill it with ICE cars that appeal to petrolheads who like to move briskly, and noisily. After new ICE cars become a thing of the past, there will be a buoyant market for well preserved older cars. Hot hatches, supercars, etc. No, it doesn't appeal to me either, but I bet there will be money to be made from it.

[Albrecht]

And you can still drive one on the roads today.

Cut off date for the ULEZ is a rolling 40 years old, hence 1982 as of today. Cant remember the specifics but anything older than circa 2007, costs £12 per day just to park outside my home (yes, there are exceptions but I don't keep myself informed with the latest road traffic laws because I cycle instead, in which case I just ignore all road traffic laws instead).

I did consider getting a 1919 Garrett Showman but the problem is, a) getting the wife to shovel coal everytime I want to go to Lidl, and b) parking.

20mph speed limit is a natural though. Can't get the guy in front with the red flag to run any faster. And the old "black box" it has fitted, is the tender.

Nice thing about Harleys is that you can buy a brand new, high performance engine to fit identically into 60s/70s/80s frame. Hence, one ought to be able to keep them running indefinitely, until that Charlton Heston "pry out of my cold, dead hands" moment when they finally come to take away the last of the petrol engine.

DVLA goes by frame numbers, not engine numbers.

It's still an undesireable sin though from an environmental point of view.

I expect ULEZ standards will spread nationwide too.

[Psamathe]

I can't see why local (on vehicle) databases that periodically batch update then speed limiting becomes based on GPS location. Such databases might currently be imperfect but were they to become a recognised speed limiting system then it could become an obligation/requirement on Highways to accurately maintain such databases.
...
How do the tracking systems on cars currently work and who monitors or records the data?
...

I tend to agree with jdsk that autonomous zone sensing will come about but why would it be the responsibility of local governments? It would have to be a dedicated national system. It really already exists c/o everyone's mobile phones and don't young drivers have to submit to black boxes recording cornering, braking and top speeds? Hell, even those rent-a-bikes have SIM cards and trackers.

I was discussing speed limiting systems and I'm not aware of any mobile phone that currently limits the speed of a vehicle it is being carried in. It would have to be a local database copy as you cannot rely on a mobile phone signal (or you'd get no speed limits in no/poor coverage areas).

As I was discussing speed limiting it would have to be a government provided database as it is in effect enforcement.

I was not discussing data collection nor return, just downloaded database of speed limits (batch downloaded periodicaly) and vehicle speed limits based on GPS - nothing collected, nothing returned, no Big Brother involved.

Of course there would be a massive outcry if you present such a system as doing things it doesn't do (like tracking and returning data to Big Brother). System being discussed does not do that.

Ian

[Albrecht]

I'm not aware of any mobile phone that currently limits the speed of a vehicle it is being carried in.

I dare say someone could build a "Parental Guidance" app that did the trick, but I was thinking more about the onboard connectivity that, apparently, 50% of cars have now. How does that work?

I once had the opportunity to take apart one of the now defunct OFO hire bike and, in its lock, it had a standard, large sized, mobile phone SIM. I understand all such hire bikes have them, and that they operate within some kind of 'digital boundary' that triggers a signal if crossed. Ditto if they get stolen or dumped.

How do they work? They couldn't be paying for a £10 a month data package for each bike? Presumably they were working off existing mobile phone mast networks, identified from other network traffic by MAC signatures, or IP addresses?

I believe that mobile phones can be installed with fairly accurate GPS speedometers, and pretty much track for life any journeys owners carry out with them on their persons? If said SIMs can do so, presumably there are SIMs installed into cars, & they can do so too?

Ditto, don't the black boxes installed into young drivers' car track everything from times driver, to cornering speed & braking intensities?

Sorry, I'm becoming ancient and although I have a kind of overview of these technologies, I don't indulge in them any more. One thing I do accept is it is it recorded, copies are made, kept, and shared with the authorities & other third parties.

[Psamathe]

I'm not aware of any mobile phone that currently limits the speed of a vehicle it is being carried in.

I dare say someone could build a "Parental Guidance" app that did the trick, but I was thinking more about the onboard connectivity that, apparently, 50% of cars have now. How does that work?

I once had the opportunity to take apart one of the now defunct OFO hire bike and, in its lock, it had a standard, large sized, mobile phone SIM. I understand all such hire bikes have them, and that they operate within some kind of 'digital boundary' that triggers a signal if crossed. Ditto if they get stolen or dumped.

How do they work? They couldn't be paying for a £10 a month data package for each bike? Presumably they were working off existing mobile phone mast networks, identified from other network traffic by MAC signatures, or IP addresses?
...

I don't know about the specific system and whether it uses SIM or alternatives but there are certainly viable alternatives e.g. SigFox. Wide Area low volume data networks where the RF design means greater range so fewer base stations but nothing like the data capacity from GSM. Designed for "Internet of Things" and used by things like bike GPS trackers (where data volumes are trivial, speed of data throughput is irrelevant and thus costs are much much lower.

SigFox is not the only one but it does have presence in many countries. Recently had a few "issues" but those operating countries that had "question marks" have now secured themselves (through mergers). Good example is the AlterLock which uses that network; my review of the device https://psamathe.net/alterlock-cycle-security-review/ but it does include a short discussion of the network towards the bottom. I have my suspicions about their coverage but I'm rural so it is bound to be better in towns/cities where hire system you mention operate.

Such networks would not be suitable for e.g. speed limit tabled download as they are not suitable to such data volumes (but data like that can be through e.g. overnight update through Wi-Fi).

Ian

[Albrecht]

Such networks would not be suitable for e.g. speed limit tabled download as they are not suitable to such data volumes (but data like that can be through e.g. overnight update through Wi-Fi).

Thanks, I'll read up on it.

Yes, I would have thought the data would be cached and then uploaded whenever the vehicle finds a sufficiently adequate network ... which could be the user's phone.

One of the surprising inadequate elements of the ULEZ is that, allegedly, it can't calculate 24 hours from purchase and, hence, works on a 12 midnight to 12 midnight cycle*. But with speeding data, I suppose you could do a once a day, 24 hour dump.

So you're talking about two functions; one sensor that triggers an alert in the car when entering a city, town or village with a 20mph and slows the car down; and a second that uploads all relevant data AFTER the alert has been triggered so ensure it was adhered to?

You wouldn't need to upload 24/7 data, especially as the vehicle is sitting doing nothing for 98% of the time.

I am also not uptospeed on the latest tacos fitted to trucks. In my day it was big paper circles that you had to manually load, & punch buttons to operate. I understand they are tracked in real time now.

* Not that I would dream of suggesting that the problem wasn't technical, but Transport for London just chose to clock the ULEZ in that manner so they could make more revenue off it from people going out at night, or the night shift workers ...

[Jdsk]

I can't see why local (on vehicle) databases that periodically batch update then speed limiting becomes based on GPS location. Such databases might currently be imperfect but were they to become a recognised speed limiting system then it could become an obligation/requirement on Highways to accurately maintain such databases.

I tend to agree with jdsk that autonomous zone sensing will come about but why would it be the responsibility of local governments? It would have to be a dedicated national system. It really already exists c/o everyone's mobile phones and don't young drivers have to submit to black boxes recording cornering, braking and top speeds? Hell, even those rent-a-bikes have SIM cards and trackers.

Of course, people will cry "Big Brother" but I'll take the Pastor Martin Niemöller position ("First they came for the …"), until the government starts demanding retrofitting them to 60s Raleighs.
...

There's far too much uncontrolled surveillance in the UK. And the current government is attempting to make it worse with derogation from GDPR and restrictions on judicial review.

But that doesn't have much to do with 20 mph limits or speed limiters.

1 Driving motorised vehicles on public roads is a conditional privilege, not a right. Stopping them being used dangerously is a valid reason for identifying the offender.

2 Speed limiters don't have to pass any information to the state, only limit the speed of the vehicle to what has been declared appropriate to the road that they are using. Apart from being enormously more effective than detection and prosecution this involves less transmission of personal information.

Jonathan

[Albrecht]

Good example is the AlterLock which uses that network; my review of the device https://psamathe.net/alterlock-cycle-security-review/ but it does include a short discussion of the network towards the bottom

Read over the review, thank you. I have one comment to add to it.

On the whole, I hate manufacturers who stick their logos over everything. Why? After I buy something it is mine, and if they want to advertise on it, they should pay me. And, of course, EVERYONE wants to do it, hence you may end up with 20 visually conflicting logos all over a bike.

BUT ... why stick a logo on a security device that tells potential thieves what it is? I mean, how stupid & short sighted does that get? Especially when it can be taken off with only two screws. Make it invisible. I've seen this happen on a few such "track my bike" devices.

[Psamathe]

Good example is the AlterLock which uses that network; my review of the device https://psamathe.net/alterlock-cycle-security-review/ but it does include a short discussion of the network towards the bottom

Read over the review, thank you. I have one comment to add to it.

On the whole, I hate manufacturers who stick their logos over everything. Why? After I buy something it is mine, and if they want to advertise on it, they should pay me. And, of course, EVERYONE wants to do it, hence you may end up with 20 visually conflicting logos all over a bike.

BUT ... why stick a logo on a security device that tells potential thieves what it is? I mean, how stupid & short sighted does that get? Especially when it can be taken off with only two screws. Make it invisible. I've seen this happen on a few such "track my bike" devices.

<offtopic> (but after 10 pages)
I agree. Same with automatic software updates: it's mine and I chose if and when I want to update software.

Interestingly on the bike security device there seems two very different approaches: hide it away to shock thief (if alarm) or track unbeknown to thief (if silent). The other is to make it very obvious as a deterrent e.g. https://boomerangbike.com (which I think will just encourage thief to take a brick to the bike/device as they apparently often only want the components. The Alterlock is moderately well hidden but better is the "Knowhere" https://seesense.cc/products/see-sense- ... eq=uniform (if it ever moves out of crowdfunding to become a real product, whih has been an age and keeps slipping).

You can order the Alterlock with security bolts for small extra cost (the dimpled torx bolts which most thiefs will find easy) and others use similar security bolts.
</offtopic>

Ian