Default 20mph for Wales

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Mike Sales
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Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Welsh Government launch consultation on reducing speed limits from 30mph to 20mph

Post by Mike Sales »

Plans to reduce the national default speed limit in Wales from 30mph to 20mph on residential roads and busy pedestrian streets will form part of the Welsh Government’s legislative priorities for this year, Deputy Minister for Climate Change, Lee Waters has confirmed.

If passed, Wales will be the first country in the UK to introduce the change which will play an instrumental role in helping to save lives, protect our communities and improve quality of life for everyone.
https://www.thebangoraye.com/welsh-gove ... -to-20mph/
It's the same the whole world over
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It's the rich what gets the pleasure
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mattsccm
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Re: Welsh Government launch consultation on reducing speed limits from 30mph to 20mph

Post by mattsccm »

:lol:
Pointless without the enforcement.
Lovely idea though and I suppose, despite my first comment it will knock the average down a bit.
pwa
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Re: Welsh Government launch consultation on reducing speed limits from 30mph to 20mph

Post by pwa »

mattsccm wrote: 9 Jul 2021, 9:09pm :lol:
Pointless without the enforcement.
Lovely idea though and I suppose, despite my first comment it will knock the average down a bit.
I live about two miles from one of the two pilot 20mph sites, and the average speed has plummeted. Driving through in a car, it takes some concentration to keep the speed down when you have been driving that piece of road for decades with a speed limit 10mph higher. The central section always was more like 20 than 30 in practice, but a long stretch of it was genuinely okay at 30, and that takes an effort of will. Some of us make that effort and some are simply slowed by us doing that, but most drivers at busy time of day are going slower through choice or because the vehicle in front is preventing them going faster. So the new limit is having a big effect.

This is the section where 20 has always felt like the natural max speed:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4616034 ... 6?hl=en-GB

This is the section leaving the village, where 30 has felt more natural and an effort of will on my part is now required with the new 20 limit:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4560686 ... 6?hl=en-GB

My own feeling as a user is that the new limit makes complete sense in the first section, less so in the second section. I wouldn't be surprised if it is decided to split it into two sections, a 20 and a 30, when the pilot is assessed. But we will see.

I am curious about exactly which roads will be lined up for the proposed 20mph limit. I think we can all agree that at one end of the spectrum there are purely residential streets where the change from 30 to something lower is long overdue. But at the other end of the spectrum we have the section of road in the second example above, with relatively few homes that are mostly on one side of the road only. In practice there are rarely pedestrians trying to cross there, and when they do they have good sight lines and good breaks in the traffic to do it safely. So why reduce that to 20? I'm guessing it is because it was simpler to take a whole 30mph stretch and convert it to 20, rather than split it into two different limits.
thirdcrank
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Re: Welsh Government launch consultation on reducing speed limits from 30mph to 20mph

Post by thirdcrank »

This is from the Welsh Government media release from which the link in the OP was taken by a local rag.
Making 20mph the default speed limit on busy pedestrian streets and in residential areas across Wales is a bold step that brings about significant benefits.
https://gov.wales/safer-streets-save-lives

I'm unclear whether it means that the current 30 mph speed limit will become 20 mph or if this will only apply to "busy pedestrian streets and in residential areas." Assuming it means the former and they lack the bottle to say so then one get out for local traffic authorities is the one which allows 30mph speed limits to be varied upwards.
pwa
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Re: Welsh Government launch consultation on reducing speed limits from 30mph to 20mph

Post by pwa »

thirdcrank wrote: 10 Jul 2021, 7:34am This is from the Welsh Government media release from which the link in the OP was taken by a local rag.
Making 20mph the default speed limit on busy pedestrian streets and in residential areas across Wales is a bold step that brings about significant benefits.
https://gov.wales/safer-streets-save-lives

I'm unclear whether it means that the current 30 mph speed limit will become 20 mph or if this will only apply to "busy pedestrian streets and in residential areas." Assuming it means the former and they lack the bottle to say so then one get out for local traffic authorities is the one which allows 30mph speed limits to be varied upwards.
The devil is in the detail. But I welcome the direction of travel. It looks like being a busy time for the people who install signs and road paint.
Oldjohnw
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Re: Welsh Government launch consultation on reducing speed limits from 30mph to 20mph

Post by Oldjohnw »

Works extremely well in Scotland and N Northumberland. Takes a bit of getting used to as a motorist but has now got widespread public acceptance.
John
pwa
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Re: Welsh Government launch consultation on reducing speed limits from 30mph to 20mph

Post by pwa »

Oldjohnw wrote: 10 Jul 2021, 8:04am Works extremely well in Scotland and N Northumberland. Takes a bit of getting used to as a motorist but has now got widespread public acceptance.
In Wales the proposal is not simply to have new 20 limits. We have lots of those already. It is to make 20 the default where there is currently 30, requiring councils to actively make exceptions for any they don't want taken down to that speed.
Oldjohnw
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Re: Welsh Government launch consultation on reducing speed limits from 30mph to 20mph

Post by Oldjohnw »

Thanks.
John
awavey
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Re: Welsh Government launch consultation on reducing speed limits from 30mph to 20mph

Post by awavey »

Oldjohnw wrote: 10 Jul 2021, 8:04am Works extremely well in Scotland and N Northumberland. Takes a bit of getting used to as a motorist but has now got widespread public acceptance.
define works well though.

Ive lived in residiential 20mph zones for the past couple of decades, never been any enforcement Ive noticed, the average speed of drivers is at least 30mph, only a fraction keep to 20mph, there are regularly people driving 40,50, maybe even 60+ at times. I had an argument with a near neighbour once who drove like a complete **** all the time and he claimed he'd never even noticed it was 20mph, there are lots of signs, there are speed bumps, he just chose to ignore it because there was no consequence to it.

I know if I drive along it at 20mph,and theres nothing behind me,I can guarantee Ill have another vehicle tailgating me before Im even 1/3rd of the road along.

if I cycle it at 15mph, Ill be overtaken, even had a car once drive on to the pavement to get past me.

they arent paradises of quiet, where kids feel able to play in safety or ride bikes in comfort.

so for me personally, they dont work, because theres never any enforcement,so the vast majority of drivers ignore it
Oldjohnw
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Re: Welsh Government launch consultation on reducing speed limits from 30mph to 20mph

Post by Oldjohnw »

I don’t know where you live but down in the Eastern Borders I rarely come across people ignoring the 20mph limit. It is certain true that I haven’t seen much evidence of enforcement but then people appear to be complying.

I have rarely been tailgated in urban zones (frequently on dual carriageways and motorways) but I would expect to be overtaken if I am cycling at 15mph so long as there was space. I have overtaken cyclists without exceeding the speed limit.
John
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Welsh Government launch consultation on reducing speed limits from 30mph to 20mph

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Really shouldn’t take conscious effort. It’s 15+ years since I’ve had a car without a speed limiting function…
Currently that’s two clicks down on the left and the car is at 20 not 30.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
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thirdcrank
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Re: Welsh Government launch consultation on reducing speed limits from 30mph to 20mph

Post by thirdcrank »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 10 Jul 2021, 5:20pm Really shouldn’t take conscious effort. It’s 15+ years since I’ve had a car without a speed limiting function…
Currently that’s two clicks down on the left and the car is at 20 not 30.
Things are developing at quite a pace. Our current car - a basic 67 plate Skoda Fabia - has none of that. We did have it on a 55 plate Toyota Rav 4 but it didn't work at 20 mph and IIRC didn't apply braking downhill. In any case, IME, those devices are more trouble than they are worth because they seem to encourage drivers to leave it to the car, eg when behind another vehicle adhering to a slightly lower speed.

I still feel that the problem is that the Welsh Government is consulting on a reasonable policy change but feels the need to spin it and risk causing confusion. It's reasonable that the Welsh Government has a view on the policy - it would be daft to consult if they did not - but they should state that separately.
Jdsk
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Re: Welsh Government launch consultation on reducing speed limits from 30mph to 20mph

Post by Jdsk »

Speed limiters as opposed to controllers don't leave it to the car: lift off and you slow down.

Jonathan
thirdcrank
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Re: Welsh Government launch consultation on reducing speed limits from 30mph to 20mph

Post by thirdcrank »

So long as signs are clear, I don't have a problem complying with them. I do know that normally street lighting = 30 mph, but there are now so many delimited roads that it can be a bit more complicated than that. I'll probably trigger a camera next time I go out, but I do comply with speed limits. And I do so by keeping an eye on the digital speedo.

I'll spell this out: IMO if the Welsh Government wants to replace the national speed limit of 30 mph in built-up areas with a 20 mph limit they should say just that in any consultation. It's then entirely reasonable that they should set out the evidence behind the proposal.
======================
PS I don't treat limits as a target. I drive at what I think is a reasonable speed - eg acknowledging that I cannot see round corners - but always within the limit, whether I think an individual limit is silly or not.
Carlton green
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Re: Welsh Government launch consultation on reducing speed limits from 30mph to 20mph

Post by Carlton green »

One of my local roads has a 20 mph limit on it, people do seem to drive more slowly along it now (was a not always adhered to 30 mph limit) and the particular road is safer for that change. I prefer the new arrangement.

How this will work in Wales I do not know. I’ve lived in Wales and so have family members, our impression is that the Welsh are ‘adventurous’ drivers so don’t expect them to strictly adhere to what the road signs say. That said the Welsh seem to get along just fine adhering to their own set of ‘local customs and interpretations’ so so long as you know what to expect all will be well.

I’m not sure about blanket 20 mph limits, they’re probably not a good idea, but having 20 mph limits in carefully chosen locations does make sense to me and I welcome their wider use. Unfortunately some people do treat the 30 mph limit as a target (to reach and maybe go over) and don’t drive within it as conditions dictate.
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