Default 20mph for Wales

pwa
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by pwa »

Cugel wrote: 3 Dec 2022, 9:02am
In even shorter, only the inertia of old bad transport habits prevents something far better, cleaner and safer. And a lack of imagination. And vested interests of a tiny few.

Cugel
You could also add that it is a great pity that our arterial roads, where larger vehicles have to go to get to where they are needed, are also often residential. If we were starting from scratch we would never have had housing alongside A roads, or A roads alongside housing. This is a legacy of the work of one century being pastered over the work of a previous century, leaving us with a messy situation that is difficult or impossible to totally disentangle. The wider use of lower speed limits is a step in the right direction, and it is being rolled out across Wales on roads that range from motorway to urban residential. It feels right to me. We can and will quibble about the details, but I believe the general move is one that will enjoy widespread support.
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Bmblbzzz »

He might need a big cargo bike - perhaps something more like a milk float
Something like these:
https://www.zedify.co.uk/about-us/
mattsccm
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by mattsccm »

Can't remember if I have said this but I am not scrolling through 15 pages of off topic stuff to find out.
Whilst this is a small thing a 20 limit can harm cycling. Not in a way that the average campaigner will see as important but cycling none the less. My cycling club has lost a time trial course because of this. Yes I know we are not strictly limited to 20 as cyclists but it doesn't look good when you have a dozen aero clad riders doing 25mph+ through a dead flat village on an A road . The flashing speed indicators tend to give things away.
Ah well. No motorist takes much notice anyway as there is no policing hence no care. I wonder if bigger fines would fund a stand alone, ring fenced road policing system?
drossall
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by drossall »

We and several other local clubs have lost courses that went through a village for the same reason. No speed detector devices there, but again the respective clubs' committees felt that it would be insensitive for bikes to go through at over 20mph.
awavey
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by awavey »

I think there will always be edge cases and unintended consequences, but is a TT course through a "residential area" (and I know the definition of that can be really loose) really that smart an idea whether the 20mph speed limit is there or not ? simply because it instantly increases the likely conflict with pedestrians, other vehicles moving,delivering or just parked up around housing.
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Cugel
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Cugel »

awavey wrote: 11 Dec 2022, 1:19pm I think there will always be edge cases and unintended consequences, but is a TT course through a "residential area" (and I know the definition of that can be really loose) really that smart an idea whether the 20mph speed limit is there or not ? simply because it instantly increases the likely conflict with pedestrians, other vehicles moving,delivering or just parked up around housing.
Just so.

In my experience, time trialling and those who pursue it become very obsessive about the seconds. They don't like to slow. They have only one objective, failure at which will depress them, so they become like white van delivery men (driving madly because of their near impossible schedule) only on a bike. They don't care to slow, for anything.

Who derives these TT courses through populated streets or, alternatively, on fast dual carriageways? The former endangers peds, cats, dogs and especially those slow at crossing a road. The latter still tempts those obsessed with their seconds to ride in such a way that an induced close pass will get them some "pull".

Where should TTs be held then? I can think of hundreds of miles of roads I've ridden down where traffic is light, population is nil and the views are clear. But many are apparently not "fast" courses. I never have grasped why a "race against yourself" is in reality negated by high cost technologies of bike and clothing as well as by the seeking of "fast" courses that ignore any other factor, including dangers to peds and the TTers themselves.

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
drossall
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by drossall »

awavey wrote: 11 Dec 2022, 1:19pmI think there will always be edge cases and unintended consequences, but is a TT course through a "residential area" (and I know the definition of that can be really loose) really that smart an idea whether the 20mph speed limit is there or not ? simply because it instantly increases the likely conflict with pedestrians, other vehicles moving,delivering or just parked up around housing.
It's a pretty quiet village! You meet more people out walking in other parts of the course...
mattsccm
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by mattsccm »

Bit of judgement there without knowing all the facts methinks. In this case there wasn't a even 30 limit when the course was registered. The only interaction with the public was the cheering on.
Dingdong
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Dingdong »

20mph, while a good idea won't be practical I think
Pete Owens
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Pete Owens »

Perfectly practical - and already been successfully implemented in a number of places outside Wales.
pwa
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by pwa »

Another article.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-64066163

One Welsh Government document suggests an economic hit from the default 20mph, but a minister predicts savings....
My own feeling is that it will all depend on how it is applied.
Last edited by pwa on 27 Dec 2022, 2:54pm, edited 2 times in total.
Pete Owens
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Pete Owens »

Indeed.

The savings will depend on main roads not being excluded from the rollout - since this is where most of the crashes occur.
Nigel
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Nigel »

pwa wrote: 26 Dec 2022, 7:43am Another article.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-64066163

One Welsh Government documanet suggests an economic hit from the default 20mph, but a minister predicts savings....
My own feeling is that it will all depend on how it is apllied.
If one takes the various (not well referenced) figures in the news article, we have £4.5Bn over 30 years and, in the opposite direction, £0.1Bn (£100million) in one year. As 30*£0.1Bn=£3Bn over 30 years, and as this is all estimates with extremely large margins for error, I'd conclude that £4.5Bn and £3Bn over 30 years are near enough the same, so pick whichever figure backs your political view.

- Nigel
pwa
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by pwa »

Savings from reduced accident costs, yes. It is reasonable to anticipate that. It is also reasonable to expect some increased delivery costs with vans and lorries managing fewer drops per day. But I personally have no way of quantifying those things for comparison. Added to which, accidents are not all about money. If it turned out that there were a negative net impact on the Welsh economy, but towns and villages become nicer places to be, the question will be whether the benefit justifies the cost.
Stevek76
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Stevek76 »

Nigel wrote: 27 Dec 2022, 2:44pm
pwa wrote: 26 Dec 2022, 7:43am Another article.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-64066163

One Welsh Government documanet suggests an economic hit from the default 20mph, but a minister predicts savings....
My own feeling is that it will all depend on how it is apllied.
If one takes the various (not well referenced) figures in the news article, we have £4.5Bn over 30 years and, in the opposite direction, £0.1Bn (£100million) in one year. As 30*£0.1Bn=£3Bn over 30 years,
You can't just multiply by number of years as future year figures get 'discounted' (because people value jam today more than jam tomorrow).

There's a lot of random figures being chucked around in this article, looking at the actual report the -4.5bn appears to be the central net estimate of the overall policy, i.e all monetised costs and benefits summed together over the 30yrs the travel time costs are actually 6.4bn with about 1.9bn of various total benefits (casualties, noise, air etc)

As they note, not everything has been monetised and most of those things are benefits. The estimation of journey time increases is also quite pessimistic.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
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