Default 20mph for Wales

xerxes
Posts: 142
Joined: 10 May 2013, 7:22pm

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by xerxes »

the snail wrote: 4 Jan 2023, 3:24pm Maybe delivery companies should be fined if their vans are speeding?
Good idea. Of course the driver is responsible in law, but fining the companies as well might have some effect.
pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by pwa »

pete75 wrote: 4 Jan 2023, 3:35pm
the snail wrote: 4 Jan 2023, 3:24pm Maybe delivery companies should be fined if their vans are speeding?
Don't know if they do pay the fines. A friend who was a lorry driver said his boss paid any fines he got. Most delivery drivers these days are self employed "owner drivers" and the delivery companies have fewer and fewer vans.
Prosecutions are directed at the driver, of course, and big companies are not going to want the general public to think they, the companies, pay speeding fines. So the drivers pay. They also pick up the points and attend courses, paid for out of their own pockets. Professional drivers are most worried by the points rather than the fines. And as their employers don't have these worries, they pile on the pressure without having to be concerned about the consequences. I had a friend who racked up six points in spite of resolving to slow down a bit, and at that point he changed jobs to a non-driving role because he didn't think he could be disciplined about speed whilst also coping with his workload.

It would be bad news if big name employers paid their drivers' fines, which I don't think they do, but it would be great if the employer also incurred some serious penalty if they racked up too many speeding incidents.
pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by pete75 »

pwa wrote: 4 Jan 2023, 4:26pm
pete75 wrote: 4 Jan 2023, 3:35pm
the snail wrote: 4 Jan 2023, 3:24pm Maybe delivery companies should be fined if their vans are speeding?
Don't know if they do pay the fines. A friend who was a lorry driver said his boss paid any fines he got. Most delivery drivers these days are self employed "owner drivers" and the delivery companies have fewer and fewer vans.
Prosecutions are directed at the driver, of course, and big companies are not going to want the general public to think they, the companies, pay speeding fines. So the drivers pay. They also pick up the points and attend courses, paid for out of their own pockets. Professional drivers are most worried by the points rather than the fines. And as their employers don't have these worries, they pile on the pressure without having to be concerned about the consequences. I had a friend who racked up six points in spite of resolving to slow down a bit, and at that point he changed jobs to a non-driving role because he didn't think he could be disciplined about speed whilst also coping with his workload.

It would be bad news if big name employers paid their drivers' fines, which I don't think they do, but it would be great if the employer also incurred some serious penalty if they racked up too many speeding incidents.
It's not uncommon in the road haulage industry from what I've heard. It is, after all, an expense incurred during the course of employment so nothing wrong if the employer pays. It's also relatively uncommon for truck drivers to be prosecuted for speeding
https://www.microlise.com/blog/speeding ... alty-free/
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by pwa »

pete75 wrote: 4 Jan 2023, 6:33pm
pwa wrote: 4 Jan 2023, 4:26pm
pete75 wrote: 4 Jan 2023, 3:35pm

Don't know if they do pay the fines. A friend who was a lorry driver said his boss paid any fines he got. Most delivery drivers these days are self employed "owner drivers" and the delivery companies have fewer and fewer vans.
Prosecutions are directed at the driver, of course, and big companies are not going to want the general public to think they, the companies, pay speeding fines. So the drivers pay. They also pick up the points and attend courses, paid for out of their own pockets. Professional drivers are most worried by the points rather than the fines. And as their employers don't have these worries, they pile on the pressure without having to be concerned about the consequences. I had a friend who racked up six points in spite of resolving to slow down a bit, and at that point he changed jobs to a non-driving role because he didn't think he could be disciplined about speed whilst also coping with his workload.

It would be bad news if big name employers paid their drivers' fines, which I don't think they do, but it would be great if the employer also incurred some serious penalty if they racked up too many speeding incidents.
It's not uncommon in the road haulage industry from what I've heard. It is, after all, an expense incurred during the course of employment so nothing wrong if the employer pays. It's also relatively uncommon for truck drivers to be prosecuted for speeding
https://www.microlise.com/blog/speeding ... alty-free/
It would be terrible PR for well known companies like Amazon and Tesco for it to become known that they paid speeding fines, so they don't. But I am sure less well known outfits do otherwise. My friend drove for a supermarket and he received his speeding tickets as if he were a private driver. He had to pay the cost of his corrective course, then his two fines. And of course he got the points. His employer received no penalty for these offences, and so had no incentive to look at why this driver seemed to have a recurring issue. The driver himself decided he couldn't manage without speeding, so asked to be put on a different job. I think he now has a warehouse job.

He was a bit too scatty for driving, so I'm not saying he was without blame, but his employer didn't help the situation.
pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by pete75 »

pwa wrote: 4 Jan 2023, 6:46pm
pete75 wrote: 4 Jan 2023, 6:33pm
pwa wrote: 4 Jan 2023, 4:26pm
Prosecutions are directed at the driver, of course, and big companies are not going to want the general public to think they, the companies, pay speeding fines. So the drivers pay. They also pick up the points and attend courses, paid for out of their own pockets. Professional drivers are most worried by the points rather than the fines. And as their employers don't have these worries, they pile on the pressure without having to be concerned about the consequences. I had a friend who racked up six points in spite of resolving to slow down a bit, and at that point he changed jobs to a non-driving role because he didn't think he could be disciplined about speed whilst also coping with his workload.

It would be bad news if big name employers paid their drivers' fines, which I don't think they do, but it would be great if the employer also incurred some serious penalty if they racked up too many speeding incidents.
It's not uncommon in the road haulage industry from what I've heard. It is, after all, an expense incurred during the course of employment so nothing wrong if the employer pays. It's also relatively uncommon for truck drivers to be prosecuted for speeding
https://www.microlise.com/blog/speeding ... alty-free/
It would be terrible PR for well known companies like Amazon and Tesco for it to become known that they paid speeding fines, so they don't. But I am sure less well known outfits do otherwise. My friend drove for a supermarket and he received his speeding tickets as if he were a private driver. He had to pay the cost of his corrective course, then his two fines. And of course he got the points. His employer received no penalty for these offences, and so had no incentive to look at why this driver seemed to have a recurring issue. The driver himself decided he couldn't manage without speeding, so asked to be put on a different job. I think he now has a warehouse job.

He was a bit too scatty for driving, so I'm not saying he was without blame, but his employer didn't help the situation.
I disagree. These drivers are on low wages. I'd think more highly of the companies if they paid costs incurred by them during the course of their work, particularly as they are tacitly encouraged to speed.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Bmblbzzz
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Bmblbzzz »

I'd think more highly of them if they told their drivers "You've got 60 parcels in the van not 70, cos we know that's more realistic". And even more so if they told their customers, "You can have it tomorrow, but it'll cost £20 for delivery, or you can have free delivery and wait a week."
pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by pete75 »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 4 Jan 2023, 7:34pm I'd think more highly of them if they told their drivers "You've got 60 parcels in the van not 70, cos we know that's more realistic". And even more so if they told their customers, "You can have it tomorrow, but it'll cost £20 for delivery, or you can have free delivery and wait a week."
If a company did that, the ones that didn't would slay them.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Pete Owens
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Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Pete Owens »

pwa wrote: 4 Jan 2023, 6:46pm It would be terrible PR for well known companies like Amazon and Tesco for it to become known that they paid speeding fines,
It would be more than that - it would be ILLEGAL. Such a policy would be conspiring to break the law.
For the same reason you cannot buy insurance to cover fines.
pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by pete75 »

Pete Owens wrote: 4 Jan 2023, 10:22pm
pwa wrote: 4 Jan 2023, 6:46pm It would be terrible PR for well known companies like Amazon and Tesco for it to become known that they paid speeding fines,
It would be more than that - it would be ILLEGAL. Such a policy would be conspiring to break the law.
For the same reason you cannot buy insurance to cover fines.
I know some laws in Scotland are different but I doubt those relating to road traffic fines are. This is from the Scottish courts website https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/taking-ac ... -questions

"Can someone else pay my fine for me?
Yes, someone else can pay your fine for you using cash or their cheque / credit card. If your licence requires to be endorsed, the person will require to present f your licence on your behalf. If the points endorsed on the driving record take the total to 12 or more you would be cited to court to be disqualified from driving."
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Pete Owens
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Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Pete Owens »

It is not the paying of a fine after the event that is illegal, but a policy that announces in advance that fines will be paid. The later is incitement.
pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by pwa »

Pete Owens wrote: 5 Jan 2023, 6:34pm It is not the paying of a fine after the event that is illegal, but a policy that announces in advance that fines will be paid. The later is incitement.
And regardless of that, as I said earlier, what most concerns anyone whose job depends on driving is the points on their licence, which their employer cannot protect them from. The fine is a trivial matter compared to that. Professional drivers do high mileage, so if they don't exercise great care they will acquire points more quickly than drivers doing fewer miles. The friend I had who was in that situation actually changed his job to get out of a position in which he felt he was on track for a ban.
pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by pete75 »

Pete Owens wrote: 5 Jan 2023, 6:34pm It is not the paying of a fine after the event that is illegal, but a policy that announces in advance that fines will be paid. The later is incitement.
It's not incitement and it's not illegal.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by pete75 »

pwa wrote: 5 Jan 2023, 6:48pm
Pete Owens wrote: 5 Jan 2023, 6:34pm It is not the paying of a fine after the event that is illegal, but a policy that announces in advance that fines will be paid. The later is incitement.
And regardless of that, as I said earlier, what most concerns anyone whose job depends on driving is the points on their licence, which their employer cannot protect them from. The fine is a trivial matter compared to that. Professional drivers do high mileage, so if they don't exercise great care they will acquire points more quickly than drivers doing fewer miles. The friend I had who was in that situation actually changed his job to get out of a position in which he felt he was on track for a ban.
Exactly, and as I posted above only a small proportion of LGV drivers have any points.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by Jdsk »

"Incitement" appears to have been replaced by "Assisting or Encouraging Crime" in the 2007 Act.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/inchoate-offences
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incitemen ... _and_Wales

Happy New Year

Jonathan
pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Default 20mph for Wales

Post by pwa »

Incidentally, I was listening to the news on Radio 4 yeasterday morning and there was a piece about the idea that the "default 20mph" thing might be suggested for England. They had motoring personality James May on the phone to chat about it and his verdict came as a pleasant surprise. He said, basically, that he was going to make himself unpopular with some people by approving of the idea. He said that where he lives (Hammersmith?) going any faster than that would be reckless, and that if you actually managed to travel at 20mph you would be doing well anyway. And he talked about making streets civilised. All positive stuff, I thought.
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