Default 20mph for Wales
Re: Default 20mph for Wales
Yes, it would be much better if there were many more higher quality controlled trials.
But when there is insufficient evidence it's much better to say so than to make sweeping statements.
Jonathan
But when there is insufficient evidence it's much better to say so than to make sweeping statements.
Jonathan
Re: Default 20mph for Wales
It's a no brainer, isn't it?Pete Owens wrote: ↑5 Aug 2022, 12:50pm On one that would be sufficient to replace the 30 signs with 20 signs on all the boundary streets On the other ...
Even just removing all the lamppost and road marking clutter, indicating what applies where, would be a win on its own.
it's simple, one rule. "If it's in a built up area, and it's got street lights, it's 20 mph" (dual carriageways included). I'd support a nationwide roll out.
I guess now the Tories are going to avoid it and play pass the parcel onto the next Labour government, so they can blame them instead.
In London there's a more unique equation with Transport for London seemingly being a law unto itself above and beyond the local governments it crosses or effects but I drove along Marylebone Road recently and, from memory, most or all of it was 20mph. Sure, it's frustrating as hell.
Especially as the van gearing wasn't set up for it.
Re: Default 20mph for Wales
Its good to see all this discussion on 20mph limits for Wales.
We created a briefing on the actual 20mph Order at https://www.20splenty.org/wales_20mph_order
For those interested in casualty reduction when implemented then its typically 20-40% as evidenced in Edinburgh, Bath, Calderdale, Cheshire West and Chester. All done without physical calming, but lots of engagement.
Note that now there is little difference between zones and limits because a zone only requires a minimum of a single physical calming device which can be anywhere within the zone.
Much more is available at www.20splenty.org/briefings
Rod
We created a briefing on the actual 20mph Order at https://www.20splenty.org/wales_20mph_order
For those interested in casualty reduction when implemented then its typically 20-40% as evidenced in Edinburgh, Bath, Calderdale, Cheshire West and Chester. All done without physical calming, but lots of engagement.
Note that now there is little difference between zones and limits because a zone only requires a minimum of a single physical calming device which can be anywhere within the zone.
Much more is available at www.20splenty.org/briefings
Rod
Re: Default 20mph for Wales
For anyone who is interested, here is a video of a presentation made to Road Safety GB on why UK should set a national 20mph limit like Wales.
https://vimeo.com/653008691
Best wishes
Rod
https://vimeo.com/653008691
Best wishes
Rod
Re: Default 20mph for Wales
Are you a cyclist and part of 20s Plenty? If so, here's hoping it's a success and set a precedent for the rest of the nation.rodking wrote: ↑6 Aug 2022, 12:08pm Its good to see all this discussion on 20mph limits for Wales.
We created a briefing on the actual 20mph Order at 20s Plenty
A long time ago I tried to get a "2020" campaign off the ground to bring about the same at our borough level but it went down like a lead ballon. That was for a 20pmh limit for the year 2000!
As an automobile engineer, do you have any response to the comments regarding re-gearing motor vehicles to limit their performance and make lower speeds more comfortable? (I appreciate that it is a big ask to expect the Clarkson-like dominated industry to accept!).
Re: Default 20mph for Wales
"Traffic Orders & 20mph Public Attitudes Survey":
https://gov.wales/sites/default/files/p ... survey.pdf
"The value of prevention – casualty reductions in switching from a 30mph to 20mph speed limit default in Wales":
https://blogs.napier.ac.uk/tri/wp-conte ... on.AD_.pdf
Guardian coverage:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... 0mph-wales
Jonathan
https://gov.wales/sites/default/files/p ... survey.pdf
"The value of prevention – casualty reductions in switching from a 30mph to 20mph speed limit default in Wales":
https://blogs.napier.ac.uk/tri/wp-conte ... on.AD_.pdf
Guardian coverage:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... 0mph-wales
Jonathan
Re: Default 20mph for Wales
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-63542427
Claim that default 20mph speed limit in Wales could save £100m a year.
Claim that default 20mph speed limit in Wales could save £100m a year.
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales
Actually £100 million saving in the FIRST year. Savings will be greater in subsequent years as you will not need to subtract the cost of implementation.
Though the actual savings will be dependent on the degree to which local councils exempt roads from the reduced limit. Doing so will both increase the cost of signage AND reduce the benefits since the exempt roads are likely to be the busiest roads where most of the collisions occur.
Though the actual savings will be dependent on the degree to which local councils exempt roads from the reduced limit. Doing so will both increase the cost of signage AND reduce the benefits since the exempt roads are likely to be the busiest roads where most of the collisions occur.
Re: Default 20mph for Wales
My feeling is that the new limits will not be inforced and they will be ignored by most motorists but we will see....
Re: Default 20mph for Wales
I don't know how it will be implemented, but it seems inevitable that there will be a timetable that gives councils a period in which to assess which roads to include within the default limit, and which roads to exclude. Then some more time to bring about changes on the ground. But I think it is a step forward and at last makes councils look afresh at whether roads really are suitable for a 30 limit, or whether 20 makes more sense. As I am sure it very often does.
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales
The 20mph default limit will come into effect next September - which is more than enough time to buy a shedload of 20 signs.
Local authorities will not need to decide whether 20mph is appropriate - that will happen by default.
Local authorities have always had the power to set limits above or below the default by means of imposing traffic regulation orders. They will continue to have this power beyond next September so there is no deadline or need to delay implementation to accommodate this. I suspect some tory run councils will want to use their powers extensively to undermine the effectiveness of the scheme.
When this was done in the Scottish Borders it all went in very smoothly and efficiently in a fraction of the time the Welsh government has spent taking about it, implementing trials and so on. A year after implementation a handful of changes were implemented - this was mostly minor adjustments to the edge of town boundaries.
Local authorities will not need to decide whether 20mph is appropriate - that will happen by default.
Local authorities have always had the power to set limits above or below the default by means of imposing traffic regulation orders. They will continue to have this power beyond next September so there is no deadline or need to delay implementation to accommodate this. I suspect some tory run councils will want to use their powers extensively to undermine the effectiveness of the scheme.
When this was done in the Scottish Borders it all went in very smoothly and efficiently in a fraction of the time the Welsh government has spent taking about it, implementing trials and so on. A year after implementation a handful of changes were implemented - this was mostly minor adjustments to the edge of town boundaries.
Re: Default 20mph for Wales
AFAIK there is no council Wales with a Conservative majority.Pete Owens wrote: ↑8 Nov 2022, 10:00pm I suspect some tory run councils will want to use their powers extensively to undermine the effectiveness of the scheme.
Re: Default 20mph for Wales
I would prefer to see a blanket 20 mph limit on all streets in a community as exists with the 30mph limit. To have 20 mph limits on some streets and 30mph limits on others requires a lot of signage, also much greater diligence from drivers if they are not to contravene a limit. Time spent looking for speed limit signs is time taken from hazard spotting.
Re: Default 20mph for Wales
Signs - every road with a 20mph requires repeaters. That's traffic law for the UK (unlike 30, which is default when there is street lighting, no repeater needed). Whether "blanket for entire town" or "selective with some roads staying at 30" will need lots of signs, and selective will use fewer signs.Ron wrote: ↑8 Nov 2022, 11:05pm I would prefer to see a blanket 20 mph limit on all streets in a community as exists with the 30mph limit. To have 20 mph limits on some streets and 30mph limits on others requires a lot of signage, also much greater diligence from drivers if they are not to contravene a limit. Time spent looking for speed limit signs is time taken from hazard spotting.
Distracted by the signs is the excuse of drivers not capable of the observation standard required to pass a driving test.
I live in a very large area (Scottish Borders) which has had 20mph in residential, urban and villages since covid. With a few roads put back to 30. The number of signs is large. The local authority was easily able to change them all, including adding the large number of 20 repeaters, in a few months.
- Nigel
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Re: Default 20mph for Wales
Note the subject of this threadNigel wrote: ↑9 Nov 2022, 9:30amSigns - every road with a 20mph requires repeaters. That's traffic law for the UK (unlike 30, which is default when there is street lighting,Ron wrote: ↑8 Nov 2022, 11:05pm I would prefer to see a blanket 20 mph limit on all streets in a community as exists with the 30mph limit. To have 20 mph limits on some streets and 30mph limits on others requires a lot of signage, also much greater diligence from drivers if they are not to contravene a limit. Time spent looking for speed limit signs is time taken from hazard spotting.
In WALES from next September they are changing the default from 30 to 20 - this means repeaters will not be needed at all if the local authority simply goes along with the default then all that needs to change are the numbers on the edge of town boundary signs (it could be done with "2" stickers covering the exising "3"s on the 30 signs. IF they want to change some roads to 30 mph then those roads will need repeaters and also new boundary signs will be needed at every point where the limit changes.