Default 20mph for Wales

[pwa]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4glzl7e157o
I thought this ought to be filed away as an unfortunate side-effect of the 20mph default being applied on bits or road once used for cycle races.

[Jdsk]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4glzl7e157o
I thought this ought to be filed away as an unfortunate side-effect of the 20mph default being applied on bits or road once used for cycle races.

Yes, very unfortunate. There does seem to have been a genuine attempt to solve it.

And the organisers are in favour of the policy.

Jonathan

[pwa]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4glzl7e157o
I thought this ought to be filed away as an unfortunate side-effect of the 20mph default being applied on bits or road once used for cycle races.

Yes, very unfortunate. There does seem to have been a genuine attempt to solve it.

And the organisers are in favour of the policy.

Jonathan

I know the kind of roads they are dealing with, where magnificent climbs and descents have tight and densely populated little communities at the bottom, with the road passing within a couple of metres of people's front doors. Even during the half hour that the road is shut down, you don't want support vehicles passing at much above the speed limit. So big climbs, long loved by cyclists, are off the menu when it comes to racing.

[Bmblbzzz]

I thought the problem was, in part, that they couldn't shut the road down, and therefore the support cars had to abide by the speed limit and risk getting dropped, so to speak, by the peloton.

[Psamathe]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4glzl7e157o
I thought this ought to be filed away as an unfortunate side-effect of the 20mph default being applied on bits or road once used for cycle races.

Made me reflect on the Le Mans 24 hr and the Mulsane Straight (which I used to drive on every few weeks). But that also reminded me of Pete Dumbrerck's Le Mans 24 hr race accident/crash. Fortunately driver was unhurt but 1st person on the scene was a Gendarme whose first (and persistent) actions were to try and breathalyse Mr Dumbrerck as that's what the rules say needs to be done when there is an accident on public roads.



Ian

[Pete Owens]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4glzl7e157o
I thought this ought to be filed away as an unfortunate side-effect of the 20mph default being applied on bits or road once used for cycle races.

Meanwhile in Spain (another country with a civilized speed limit) the Vuelta a España is proceeding as normal.

We are talking about a closed road event so rules do not apply - they will go through red traffic lights, ride the wrong way round roundabouts, use both sides of the road and exceed speed limits - indeed racing itself is illegal.

Why anyone seems to think that a 20 limit is somehow more relevant than any other traffic laws - or indeed any other speed limit is beyond me. If they are descending from a mountain down into one of the valleys they will be travelling far in excess of the old 30 mph limit so the change of speed limit makes no difference whatsoever.

[Pete Owens]

I thought the problem was, in part, that they couldn't shut the road down, and therefore the support cars had to abide by the speed limit and risk getting dropped, so to speak, by the peloton.

You cannot race at all on an open road.

[pwa]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4glzl7e157o
I thought this ought to be filed away as an unfortunate side-effect of the 20mph default being applied on bits or road once used for cycle races.

Meanwhile in Spain (another country with a civilized speed limit) the Vuelta a España is proceeding as normal.

We are talking about a closed road event so rules do not apply - they will go through red traffic lights, ride the wrong way round roundabouts, use both sides of the road and exceed speed limits - indeed racing itself is illegal.

Why anyone seems to think that a 20 limit is somehow more relevant than any other traffic laws - or indeed any other speed limit is beyond me. If they are descending from a mountain down into one of the valleys they will be travelling far in excess of the old 30 mph limit so the change of speed limit makes no difference whatsoever.

The concern is primarily the support vehicles, not the cyclists themselves, and I can see the reason for concern on South Wales Valleys roads in particular, because they do often have "main road" sections that have front doors opening directly out onto narrow footways, or twisty bits of road with poor sight lines. One of the reasons for 20mph making more sense than 30mph. I'm not sure telling people "You can't leave your house for the next hour, while the stream of support vehicles races down your street at 40mph" would go down well. This is probably one of the places where a descent enters a built-up area, and although it isn't as hazard-rich as some Welsh roads, you can see issues. No pavements in places, poor sight lines, folk with no way of leaving their home except by the front door and straight onto the carriageway...
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.818897, ... FQAw%3D%3D

However, a car rally is going ahead and includes (it seems) some racing on public roads!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz6xelvve97o
Choosing my words with care, Blimey!

[Bmblbzzz]

I thought the problem was, in part, that they couldn't shut the road down, and therefore the support cars had to abide by the speed limit and risk getting dropped, so to speak, by the peloton.

You cannot race at all on an open road.

I think you can. If you and your mate race to the end of the road, the top of the hill or whatever, that's not in itself an offence. Do the same using any sort of motor vehicle and it is, even if you don't break the speed limit.

But in terms of organized racing, AIUI you can have a total road closure using a TRO for a set time, as you would for a street party say, or you have a rolling roadblock using marshalls, who in one of those bizarre compromises English law is so fond of, do not have the power to actually stop traffic but do have the power to prevent it starting if it does stop. This race in Wales would have been the latter sort. But there's someone on here who acts as a BC marshall, so I'm sure he can give the actual state of law.

[Pete Owens]

However, a car rally is going ahead and includes (it seems) some racing on public roads!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz6xelvve97o
Choosing my words with care, Blimey!

When a car rally does a section on public roads they do not race - they will have timed sections where they have to cover the distance within a margin of a pre-determined time. And that time is calculated so that it can be completed while driving safely and legally - competitors are penalised if they are too fast.

When I have occasionally come across rallies, it is not the competitors that are the problem, but the spectators rushing from one forest to the next having witnessed the rally. The same tends to be the case for spectators heading away from race tracks after a race.

[Pete Owens]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4glzl7e157o
I thought this ought to be filed away as an unfortunate side-effect of the 20mph default being applied on bits or road once used for cycle races.

Meanwhile in Spain (another country with a civilized speed limit) the Vuelta a España is proceeding as normal.

We are talking about a closed road event so rules do not apply - they will go through red traffic lights, ride the wrong way round roundabouts, use both sides of the road and exceed speed limits - indeed racing itself is illegal.

Why anyone seems to think that a 20 limit is somehow more relevant than any other traffic laws - or indeed any other speed limit is beyond me. If they are descending from a mountain down into one of the valleys they will be travelling far in excess of the old 30 mph limit so the change of speed limit makes no difference whatsoever.

The concern is primarily the support vehicles, not the cyclists themselves,

Which is absurd, since the danger mainly comes from the cyclists who are the ones actually racing head to head in close proximity, pushing themselves to the limit and extremely reluctant to lose the smallest fragment of time. An element of risk is part of the game. While the support vehicles need to more or less keep up, if they need to temporarily slow down or stop they can easily make up the time later. They also have better brakes.

and I can see the reason for concern on South Wales Valleys roads in particular, because they do often have "main road" sections that have front doors opening directly out onto narrow footways, or twisty bits of road with poor sight lines. One of the reasons for 20mph making more sense than 30mph. I'm not sure telling people "You can't leave your house for the next hour, while the stream of support vehicles races down your street at 40mph" would go down well.

I can see why a particular street may be deemed unsuitable for road racing - but this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the speed limit having changed. 40 mph would have been every bit as illegal a year ago. Also, the passing convoy does not take anything like an hour - and if your front door opens directly onto the carriageway, presumably it did so a year ago when high speed traffic including heavy vehicles was passing in both directions confining these folk within their houses 24/7 for many years.

This is probably one of the places where a descent enters a built-up area, and although it isn't as hazard-rich as some Welsh roads, you can see issues. No pavements in places, poor sight lines, folk with no way of leaving their home except by the front door and straight onto the carriageway...
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.818897, ... FQAw%3D%3D

Looks like a house with nice benches outside - ideal for spectating a passing cycle race.

[Pete Owens]

But in terms of organized racing, AIUI you can have a total road closure using a TRO for a set time, as you would for a street party say, or you have a rolling roadblock using marshalls, who in one of those bizarre compromises English law is so fond of, do not have the power to actually stop traffic but do have the power to prevent it starting if it does stop. This race in Wales would have been the latter sort. But there's someone on here who acts as a BC marshall, so I'm sure he can give the actual state of law.

It will be a rolling blockade - and that will need a TRO in place for the duration of the race even if though any particular road will only actually be closed for a few minutes. One of the misunderstandings that leads people to grumble about a planned road race is that they see the TRO and think the town is going to be shut down for the day. The blockade is implemented by skilled police motorcycle riders, who repeatedly overtake the race.

There really is no way you could contemplate a road race if there was a possibility of encountering any non-race traffic.

[pwa]

I wonder if one of the issues is the increased use of speed bumps as you enter 20mph stretches. They certainly mean support vehicles will have to slow down to 20, and I know some that deliver a big thump if you do them at more than about 15mph. The cyclists might be at risk from them in a race situation too.

[Nigel]

But in terms of organized racing, AIUI you can have a total road closure using a TRO for a set time, as you would for a street party say, or you have a rolling roadblock using marshalls, who in one of those bizarre compromises English law is so fond of, do not have the power to actually stop traffic but do have the power to prevent it starting if it does stop. This race in Wales would have been the latter sort. But there's someone on here who acts as a BC marshall, so I'm sure he can give the actual state of law.

It will be a rolling blockade - and that will need a TRO in place for the duration of the race even if though any particular road will only actually be closed for a few minutes. One of the misunderstandings that leads people to grumble about a planned road race is that they see the TRO and think the town is going to be shut down for the day. The blockade is implemented by skilled police motorcycle riders, who repeatedly overtake the race.

There really is no way you could contemplate a road race if there was a possibility of encountering any non-race traffic.

The BBC article on the Welsh race said "road closure notices hadn't been obtained". So, clearly a race on open roads presents a problem with speed limits for support vehicles.

Elsewhere in the UK, next week sees the Tour of Britain. The first stage is through the Scottish Borders which has 20mph limits in most settlements (much the same as Wales). The finish in Kelso is through streets with houses which open straight onto the route, as do several of the places visited around the course, and those places won't be provided with barriers as used at the finish. But that's all "road closures" - either rolling road block around the route, or town centre closed to traffic for the whole day at the finish. All of which goes with a fairly expensive to stage event.

[Pete Owens]

The BBC article on the Welsh race said "road closure notices hadn't been obtained".

You cannot hold a roads race on an open road - period. No road closure - no race. Again nothing whatsoever to do with the speed limit, whatever its numerical value.

So, clearly a race on open roads presents a problem with speed limits for support vehicles.

The speed of the support vehicles would be the least of the problems on an open road. While speed limits do not apply to cyclists other road rules do and these would make a race totally impractical. Indeed the entire essence of racing is to be riding wantonly and furiously (whatever the exact wording of the law that does apply to cyclists). A race will use the full width of the road, ignoring any double white lines and go the wrong way round roundabouts. It cannot stop for red traffic lights.or give way signs or zebra crossings or a bus stopping or someone reversing into a parking bay.

The thought of a peloton racing downhill in excess of 60 mph and encountering an oncoming truck doesn't bear thinking about.