Default 20mph for Wales

[Carlton green]

Conwy's list seems more reasonable at 15:
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north- ... d-30793305
Though including the prom at Rhos seems a bit odd.

Whilst I haven’t been there for many years I know and love that part of North Wales. My recollection, and Google street view seems to confirm that this is the case, is that the coast road was wide, had decent pavements and was a main link between places. As such a 30 mph limit would seem appropriate. There will be some pedestrians, but one side of the road isn’t a residential area and footfall has a seasonal element.

The trouble is you are viewing this from the perspective of a car windscreen. The Welsh guidelines evaluate exceptions in terms of whether that road is not used by pedestrians and cyclists.

As with any prom you have the town on one side and and a popular recreation area on the other used by cyclists and pedestrians. These need to cross the road to get to and from the prom. There are hardly any formal crossings for pedestrians, and although the road is wide it is used for on-street parking, which complicates cycling and poses a hazard for crossing children in particular.

It is not a situation that you might see at the edge of a built up area where a main road passes housing on one side with as set back cycleway & footway so that pedestrians have no need to cross the road, but more akin to a residential street with houses on one side and a park on the other.

We’ll have to see who makes what decision. In my experience ‘viewing things from the perspective of a car windscreen’ can be a very effective way of avoiding accidents and the biggest issue is what the nut behind the wheel does with what they see.

As the years have gone by my driving speeds have dropped and I’ve become more hazard aware, for me the roots of hazard awareness lie in starting my mobility as a cyclist and then motorcyclist. Car drivers, seemingly safe in their metal shields, too often loose track of the risks and effects of injury in a crash … and then we have the massive vehicles that some of them use! It’s the choices that drivers make that make roads safer or not, in the case of 20 mph limits that choice has been taken from drivers and the data suggests that that has been what was needed to improve road safety. The key is what is a reasonable safe speed limit for a road and then people choosing to see that as a limit and not a target, a big chunk of the population see speed limits as targets - hence the overall accident rate reduction success of the Welsh 20 mph limits.

[Bmblbzzz]

In my experience ‘viewing things from the perspective of a car windscreen’ can be a very effective way of avoiding accidents and the biggest issue is what the nut behind the wheel does with what they see.

That's a very good point when it comes to road design and traffic management for predicting how drivers will react to the road layout etc. But ‘viewing things from the perspective of a car windscreen’ is a very bad practice when it isn't combined with the pedestrian's, cyclist's and bus passenger's view; neglecting those means all roads tend to the motorway.

[Carlton green]

In my experience ‘viewing things from the perspective of a car windscreen’ can be a very effective way of avoiding accidents and the biggest issue is what the nut behind the wheel does with what they see.

That's a very good point when it comes to road design and traffic management for predicting how drivers will react to the road layout etc. But ‘viewing things from the perspective of a car windscreen’ is a very bad practice when it isn't combined with the pedestrian's, cyclist's and bus passenger's view; neglecting those means all roads tend to the motorway.

H’mm that does rather assume that the nut behind the wheel has no experience of and interest in the pedestrian's, cyclist's and bus passenger's view - and their well being. Roads are what they are, personally I think that all roads should have at least one pavement (for pedestrians and cyclists) running next to them and that motorways shouldn’t be restricted to powerful vehicles (so open to everyone) and should have their speed limit curtailed to 60 mph, and an even lower limit for the inside (lhs) lane could prove to be sensible. It’s not going to happen, but I’d love to see greater mobility for all enabled by curtailing the excessive and selfish practises of some.

[Bmblbzzz]

It's not so much about the driver's experience. In fact it would be better to think of it at population level, so drivers' experiences. It's more to do with the possibilities afforded by the default assumptions. At present roads are assumed to be primarily a carriageway for motor vehicles, with provision made for pedestrians and cyclists where it is deemed appropriate or necessary. What if we reversed this, with the whole road as default for pedestrians and cyclists, making provision for motor vehicles were appropriate? Again, it's not going to happen; but it's worth thinking about.

[Mike Sales]

The vast majority of politicians, planners and highwaymen see the outside world through a windscreen.
The large minority who are carless are less well represented.

[Carlton green]

The vast majority of politicians, planners and highwaymen see the outside world through a windscreen.
The large minority who are carless are less well represented.

I think that that’s, on both counts, very true. The poor / poorer are basically un-represented because they have little financial clout and (as there’s often a correlation between wealth and intellect) limited intellectual clout; that’s an unhelpful (to them) combination.

When I can - as I did today - I like to use my bike to transport me about. I’m lucky in being both able to afford a car and having the wits to earn its ticket price, not everyone is so fortune but thankfully some able souls do speak up for them.

It's not so much about the driver's experience. In fact it would be better to think of it at population level, so drivers' experiences. It's more to do with the possibilities afforded by the default assumptions. At present roads are assumed to be primarily a carriageway for motor vehicles, with provision made for pedestrians and cyclists where it is deemed appropriate or necessary. What if we reversed this, with the whole road as default for pedestrians and cyclists, making provision for motor vehicles were appropriate? Again, it's not going to happen; but it's worth thinking about.

Nicely put, definitely worth thinking about, thank you. Most of us here, even the old, have never seen anything except the road being dominated by cars / motorised vehicles. However that (dominance) wasn’t always the case - or it was not as polarised - and we need to return to the idea of roads being shared spaces rather than racetracks or expressways for motorists who tolerate some other road users. That return (to truly shared space) isn’t going to happen, but it needs to.

[[XAP]Bob]

personally I think ... that motorways shouldn’t be restricted to powerful vehicles (so open to everyone) and should have their speed limit curtailed to 60 mph, and an even lower limit for the inside (lhs) lane could prove to be sensible.

I'm not sure that would work at all... different speed limits on different lanes would be... not good, and the entire point of motorways was to get the motor vehicles away from other traffic.

Dropping the speed limit on dual carriageways is more reasonable, given that lower speed vehicles are there.

[Carlton green]

personally I think ... that motorways shouldn’t be restricted to powerful vehicles (so open to everyone) and should have their speed limit curtailed to 60 mph, and an even lower limit for the inside (lhs) lane could prove to be sensible.

I'm not sure that would work at all... different speed limits on different lanes would be... not good, and the entire point of motorways was to get the motor vehicles away from other traffic.

Dropping the speed limit on dual carriageways is more reasonable, given that lower speed vehicles are there.

The point of motorways is to provide constant speed long distance routes that don’t go through (get disturbed by) urban areas, they keep traffic flowing. As a cyclist I’m pushed onto torturous side roads by motorised traffic when I could cover longer distances on straight and gently graded main roads and (even) motorways. Unsurprisingly I don’t like that situation.

If slower moving (less powerful traffic) was allowed on the motorways then it would have to be protected from fast moving vehicles so a reduced limit in the near-side lane might be a way of doing that. A limit of 60 mph on dual carriageways would be OK by me, it’s fast enough to still make good progress and so long as the traffic flows then journey times will be much the same.

Here are the current speed limits and I think that lower would be better: https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/legal/speed-limits/

[Bmblbzzz]

There's a good argument to make for separated cycle paths alongside dual carriageway, and even single carriageway, main roads, maintaining priority at junctions etc.

[Carlton green]

There's a good argument to make for separated cycle paths alongside dual carriageway, and even single carriageway, main roads, maintaining priority at junctions etc.

The thread drifts but I hope that no one minds too much. In terms of improving national resilience (we’re very vulnerable to fuel prices and shortages), and improving the health of the population too, there are very good arguments to be made for getting more people cycling again and the importance of infrastructure in enabling and supporting people to do so. Some might say that we already have that infrastructure and that all we need to do is reclaim it, where they are in operation - and observed - the twenty mph limits doubtless help people to cycle more safely.

[Mike Sales]

The first year of a controversial Welsh speed limit saw around 100 fewer people killed or seriously injured on 20 and 30mph roads, the Welsh government has said.

New casualty data for the first year of the 20mph speed limit in Wales showed the number of people hurt fell by 26% than the same period the year before.

The number of casualties on 20 to 30mph roads between July and September 2024 was also the lowest for the three month-period since records began in 1979.

Ministers cautiously welcomed the figures, but the Labour politician who spearheaded the policy said it showed the speed limit was "the most successful road safety intervention in modern times".

The Conservatives said the policy remained confusing and frustrating for drivers.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c78w1891z03o

The results of the trial are in.

Will this silence the Mr. Toads?

The Tories seem to prefer deaths and injuries to the risk of frustrating the road hogs.

[roubaixtuesday]

The first year of a controversial Welsh speed limit saw around 100 fewer people killed or seriously injured on 20 and 30mph roads, the Welsh government has said.

New casualty data for the first year of the 20mph speed limit in Wales showed the number of people hurt fell by 26% than the same period the year before.

The number of casualties on 20 to 30mph roads between July and September 2024 was also the lowest for the three month-period since records began in 1979.

Ministers cautiously welcomed the figures, but the Labour politician who spearheaded the policy said it showed the speed limit was "the most successful road safety intervention in modern times".

The Conservatives said the policy remained confusing and frustrating for drivers.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c78w1891z03o

The results of the trial are in.

Will this silence the Mr. Toads?

The Tories seem to prefer deaths and injuries to the risk of frustrating the road hogs.

Fantastic news. Shout it from the rooftops.

[853]

The first year of a controversial Welsh speed limit saw around 100 fewer people killed or seriously injured on 20 and 30mph roads, the Welsh government has said.

New casualty data for the first year of the 20mph speed limit in Wales showed the number of people hurt fell by 26% than the same period the year before.

The number of casualties on 20 to 30mph roads between July and September 2024 was also the lowest for the three month-period since records began in 1979.

Ministers cautiously welcomed the figures, but the Labour politician who spearheaded the policy said it showed the speed limit was "the most successful road safety intervention in modern times".

The Conservatives said the policy remained confusing and frustrating for drivers.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c78w1891z03o

The results of the trial are in.

Will this silence the Mr. Toads?

The Tories seem to prefer deaths and injuries to the risk of frustrating the road hogs.

Nice bit of cherry-picking. And nothing to do with the Tories.

Here's the part of the article you missed out

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c78w1891z03o

[roubaixtuesday]

The first year of a controversial Welsh speed limit saw around 100 fewer people killed or seriously injured on 20 and 30mph roads, the Welsh government has said.

New casualty data for the first year of the 20mph speed limit in Wales showed the number of people hurt fell by 26% than the same period the year before.

The number of casualties on 20 to 30mph roads between July and September 2024 was also the lowest for the three month-period since records began in 1979.

Ministers cautiously welcomed the figures, but the Labour politician who spearheaded the policy said it showed the speed limit was "the most successful road safety intervention in modern times".

The Conservatives said the policy remained confusing and frustrating for drivers.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c78w1891z03o

The results of the trial are in.

Will this silence the Mr. Toads?

The Tories seem to prefer deaths and injuries to the risk of frustrating the road hogs.

Nice bit of cherry-picking. And nothing to do with the Tories.

Here's the part of the article you missed out


20mph limit figures.jpg

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c78w1891z03o

The drop is now so large it would be surprising if it didn't already meet the normal tests for significance, though I haven't done that myself so could be wrong.

[pwa]

The statisticians will want a few years of data to be able to say something conclusive, but the early indications are so positive that it would take a brave or foolish politician to advocate a wholesale return to where we were immediately prior to the default 20 in Wales. And the Welsh Tories are now sounding a little more nuanced in their opposition to the policy. I suspect that they are retreating to just campaigning for a return to 30 on some main roads.