Tax Cuts Anybody

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Psamathe
Posts: 17704
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Tax Cuts Anybody

Post by Psamathe »

pwa wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 11:15am .... Secondly, it is tax cutting, which is always a Tory mantra even in times when they can't deliver it.
Maybe I'm attributing too much strategising to Sunak but I think either of the 2 will deliver the disastrous tax cuts, just that Sunak is thinking ahead to the next General Election whereas Truss is thinking about her immediate personal greasy pole ascent.

Next election is going to be dire for the Conservatives under most scenarios. Sunak (or somebody thinking strategically) might think that for the wider electorate (mainly the Conservative "inclined" but not Party members), tax cuts now will be well forgotten in 2 years with massive inflation, cost-of-living crisis, etc. But hold back those tax cuts until just before the General Election and he'll sway many of those Conservative inclined votes (basically buying votes with the public purse).

But Truss wasting the tax cuts not might get her the votes from Conservative Party members but after 2 years they'll be long forgotten and those conservative inclined will have been enduring 2 years massive inflation, intrest rate rises, cost of living, heating massive homes, etc. so the General Election will be a Conservative disaster.

In many ways, Sunak may realise that getting elected by using tax cuts now gives him 2 years before a disaster of an election. But lose now telling the "responsible on finances" story gives him a 2nd go in 2 years when he'll be starting from a real low point where "the only way is up".

Or maybe Sunak is just trying to find a different story from Truss' "I'm Maggie, I'll give you everything" manifesto".

Ian
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Tax Cuts Anybody

Post by pete75 »

reohn2 wrote: 28 Jul 2022, 8:45am
Psamathe wrote: 26 Jul 2022, 8:41pm A fair number of commentators are saying "Who won the Conservative Leadership debates, answer: Labour".

I heard it on C4 News but Google shows loads saying the same.

IAn
That shows how low the bar has become,as currently I'm wondering what Labour stand for when Starmer sacks a shadow minister for stnspding on an RMT picket line! :?
You're not wrong.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
reohn2
Posts: 45181
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Tax Cuts Anybody

Post by reohn2 »

pete75 wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 7:40pm
reohn2 wrote: 28 Jul 2022, 8:45am
Psamathe wrote: 26 Jul 2022, 8:41pm A fair number of commentators are saying "Who won the Conservative Leadership debates, answer: Labour".

I heard it on C4 News but Google shows loads saying the same.

IAn
That shows how low the bar has become,as currently I'm wondering what Labour stand for when Starmer sacks a shadow minister for stnspding on an RMT picket line! :?
You're not wrong.
Mick Lynch for PM:- https://youtu.be/1ZEPAHi1jJs
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reohn2
Posts: 45181
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Tax Cuts Anybody

Post by reohn2 »

pwa wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 11:15am
reohn2 wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 10:25am
pwa wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 6:37am Politically, I think any PM of any party would have great difficulty resisting demands for significant reductions on taxes on household fuel bills in the coming months. It seems inevitable to me that this will happen. We will have most families struggling, and a lot of families facing the fact that they cannot eat and heat, and must choose between the two, or get into serious debt. And this at a time when tax revenue from fuel is booming. The pressure for the Government to give back that extra revenue will be enormous.
My bold
But will they?
The same should also apply to petrol and diesel prices as people need transport,nothing's forthcoming so far!
Well, two things mean it probably will happen. Firstly, the pressure from a widespread feeling of despair, and kids going hungry. Secondly, it is tax cutting, which is always a Tory mantra even in times when they can't deliver it.
Whatever this sorry bunch,led by extreme right wing puppets,funded by extremist self interested oligachs,property and media moguls,some of which don't even live here,think they have the interests of the ordinary wo/man on the street at heart have quite simply lost their minds.
These people would sell their own mother down the river given the chance,were there was profit in it!

You've castigated me in the past for claiming these monsters are right wing extremists,IMHO they are far worse!
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
reohn2
Posts: 45181
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Tax Cuts Anybody

Post by reohn2 »

The lastest from Nadine Dorries the moron :roll: :- https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rd-college
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Jdsk
Posts: 24876
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Tax Cuts Anybody

Post by Jdsk »

reohn2 wrote: 30 Jul 2022, 8:41am Nadine Dorries the moron does it again :- https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rd-college
And Sunak is about to demonstrate Godwin's Second Law:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/rish ... 15659.html

Jonathan
reohn2
Posts: 45181
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Tax Cuts Anybody

Post by reohn2 »

Jdsk wrote: 30 Jul 2022, 8:45am
reohn2 wrote: 30 Jul 2022, 8:41am Nadine Dorries the moron does it again :- https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rd-college
And Sunak is about to demonstrate Godwin's Second Law:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/rish ... 15659.html

Jonathan
That'll be abaet reet!
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
pwa
Posts: 17409
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Tax Cuts Anybody

Post by pwa »

reohn2 wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 10:37pm
pwa wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 11:15am
reohn2 wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 10:25am
My bold
But will they?
The same should also apply to petrol and diesel prices as people need transport,nothing's forthcoming so far!
Well, two things mean it probably will happen. Firstly, the pressure from a widespread feeling of despair, and kids going hungry. Secondly, it is tax cutting, which is always a Tory mantra even in times when they can't deliver it.
Whatever this sorry bunch,led by extreme right wing puppets,funded by extremist self interested oligachs,property and media moguls,some of which don't even live here,think they have the interests of the ordinary wo/man on the street at heart have quite simply lost their minds.
These people would sell their own mother down the river given the chance,were there was profit in it!

You've castigated me in the past for claiming these monsters are right wing extremists,IMHO they are far worse!
"Castigated" is too strong a word. I have taken issue with your classification, that is all. My idea of extreme right wing is even further to the right. Boris has been rubbish, reckless and numerous other bad things, but he is not particularly right wing. He actually likes big spends on public infrastructure projects, and wants to be liked by people. Public spending during the pandemic to prevent mass unemployment was a bold step, and not the action of a far right administration. I'm not saying they have been good, or competent, or moral, but just not particularly far to the right by Conservative standards. What succeeds Boris may well be a bit further to the right, in terms of the economy.
reohn2
Posts: 45181
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Tax Cuts Anybody

Post by reohn2 »

PWA
We'll have to agree to differ.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Jdsk
Posts: 24876
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Tax Cuts Anybody

Post by Jdsk »

pwa wrote: 30 Jul 2022, 9:09am
reohn2 wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 10:37pm
pwa wrote: 29 Jul 2022, 11:15am Well, two things mean it probably will happen. Firstly, the pressure from a widespread feeling of despair, and kids going hungry. Secondly, it is tax cutting, which is always a Tory mantra even in times when they can't deliver it.
Whatever this sorry bunch,led by extreme right wing puppets,funded by extremist self interested oligachs,property and media moguls,some of which don't even live here,think they have the interests of the ordinary wo/man on the street at heart have quite simply lost their minds.
These people would sell their own mother down the river given the chance,were there was profit in it!

You've castigated me in the past for claiming these monsters are right wing extremists,IMHO they are far worse!
"Castigated" is too strong a word. I have taken issue with your classification, that is all. My idea of extreme right wing is even further to the right. Boris has been rubbish, reckless and numerous other bad things, but he is not particularly right wing. He actually likes big spends on public infrastructure projects, and wants to be liked by people. Public spending during the pandemic to prevent mass unemployment was a bold step, and not the action of a far right administration. I'm not saying they have been good, or competent, or moral, but just not particularly far to the right by Conservative standards. What succeeds Boris may well be a bit further to the right, in terms of the economy.
At least three axes of differentiation are needed: economic left/ right, social and cultural left/ right, and liberal/ authoritarian.

Johnsonist populism is much more relaxed about state expenditure than is traditional conservatism.

Jonathan
Stevek76
Posts: 2087
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: Tax Cuts Anybody

Post by Stevek76 »

There really any functional difference between liberal/authoritarian and cultural left/right?

I know electoral calculus tried to stuff a third axis in but if you spin their 3d plot around it's pretty clear that their 7 clusters of political views sit almost completely on a 2d plane and the third axis is so strongly correlated with the lib/auth one to the point of being unnecessary.

Regardless, yes Johnson has been happier than usual for state expenditure but he isn't willing to compensate with correctly targeted taxes to constrain inflation. Also the idea of cutting the civil service by 40% was also announced under him. So big shiny project spend yes, boring stopping the country falling apart spend not so much.

So perhaps there is a third axis here but it's the economic competence one. :lol:

When it comes to judging the incoming contenders though easier to see what the winner actually does in power. It's not like politicians regularly actually do what they say they will!
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Tax Cuts Anybody

Post by pete75 »

Jdsk wrote: 31 Jul 2022, 9:56am
Johnsonist populism is much more relaxed about state expenditure than is traditional conservatism.

Jonathan
As were the NSDAP and the PNF. Doesn't mean they weren't right wing though.

Would the Johnson government have spent anything like as much state money if it hadn't been for Covid?
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Psamathe
Posts: 17704
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Tax Cuts Anybody

Post by Psamathe »

One bit of an article sums up how I see Ms Truss' leadership campaign and her abilities
https://www.newstatesman.com/quickfire/2022/08/liz-truss-oxbridge-plan-is-truly-baffling wrote:Liz Truss’s proposal, announced over the weekend, to offer Oxbridge interviews to all triple A* students took me back to 2012 when I worked with her at the Department for Education (DfE). It has all the hallmarks of a classic Truss idea: bafflingly obtuse, poorly thought through, and impossible to implement.
(My bold and colour)
I suspect that her ongoing daft ideas go beyond her saying whatever her mainly grey, mainly male, mainly S England 160K audience want. I think she really does not have the capacity to think anything through. She really needs to learn "Engage brain before mouth".

Ian
mumbojumbo
Posts: 1525
Joined: 1 Aug 2018, 8:18pm

Re: Tax Cuts Anybody

Post by mumbojumbo »

Many bright people shun The oxbridge thing- ioo elitist for many, and frankly overrated ,especially for Economics. Just consider the many mediocre politicians with PPE eg Cameron ,Truss, Sunak and Miliband.
Psamathe
Posts: 17704
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Tax Cuts Anybody

Post by Psamathe »

Another Truss daftness
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/01/liz-truss-plan-to-cut-11bn-in-whitehall-waste-ludicrous wrote:... she said would “tailor pay to the cost of living where civil servants actually work”. She claimed this would save up to £8.8bn.

Experts questioned whether the savings were feasible. Alex Thomas, programme director at the Institute for Government, said: “If you’re just talking about civil servants, that is ludicrous; it doesn’t add up at all. The whole [annual] civil service pay bill is around £9bn.”
So on a salary bill of £9m she believes she can save £8.8m!

Maybe what is more amazing is how the Conservative membership is sucking all this up without questioning.

Ian
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