Tax Cuts Anybody

[Psamathe]

...
There will be many around the world who are having the full schadenfreude, recalling our past history and those events involving various thieving and violent predations by the British state and its agents (commercial & military) upon their country and its denizens. It's hard to blame them, despite such feelings being of no real use in repairing the long tail of the various damages Britain has wrought over the whole globe in the past few centuries.
...

When I was cycle touring in 2019? as Johnson was campaigning to be leader I had dutch people (at campsites/campsite owners) joking "you're going to get Boris as your PM ...". It was not joking in a nasty way, just they found it amusing that a country could likely end-up with somebody like Johnson as PM so when they found I was British it became something funny.

Ian

[Jdsk]

When I was cycle touring in 2019? as Johnson was campaigning to be leader I had dutch people (at campsites/campsite owners) joking "you're going to get Boris as your PM ...". It was not joking in a nasty way, just they found it amusing that a country could likely end-up with somebody like Johnson as PM so when they found I was British it became something funny.

Same trip, same time, same contacts. (Same temperature!)

I would describe it as sympathetic puzzlement about the UK's position. Quite different from the usual political discussion.

Jonathan

[Cugel]

...
There will be many around the world who are having the full schadenfreude, recalling our past history and those events involving various thieving and violent predations by the British state and its agents (commercial & military) upon their country and its denizens. It's hard to blame them, despite such feelings being of no real use in repairing the long tail of the various damages Britain has wrought over the whole globe in the past few centuries.
...

When I was cycle touring in 2019? as Johnson was campaigning to be leader I had dutch people (at campsites/campsite owners) joking "you're going to get Boris as your PM ...". It was not joking in a nasty way, just they found it amusing that a country could likely end-up with somebody like Johnson as PM so when they found I was British it became something funny.

Ian

Do they think we are still laughing at the monstrous blonde wrecking ball now, those Netherlanders? Were many of us chortling when he first berthed himself at the PM wharf? One feels that those Dutchmen were laughing at us, not with us. They were laughing, perhaps, as they visualised the discomfits we would soon be suffering?

Cugel

[pwa]

.........There will be many around the world who are having the full schadenfreude, recalling our past history and those events involving various thieving and violent predations by the British state and its agents (commercial & military) upon their country and its denizens. It's hard to blame them, despite such feelings being of no real use in repairing the long tail of the various damages Britain has wrought over the whole globe in the past few centuries...............

I believe people who have strong feelings about today's UK because of wrongs done by Britain in the past are themselves just as guilty of living in the past as people who like singing "Land of Hope and Glory". Both are mired in stuff that belongs to another age.

As for tax cuts, people on low to middle incomes are feeling the pinch at the moment, so I believe some reduction in the tax burden for those groups would be a good idea. NI isn't paid on very low incomes so cutting that won't help the poorest as much as those on middle incomes. Raising the Income Tax threshold is, similarly, not going to help the poorest much, as they already don't pay on most of what they earn. But cutting VAT might help everyone, and reduce inflation.

[pete75]

.........There will be many around the world who are having the full schadenfreude, recalling our past history and those events involving various thieving and violent predations by the British state and its agents (commercial & military) upon their country and its denizens. It's hard to blame them, despite such feelings being of no real use in repairing the long tail of the various damages Britain has wrought over the whole globe in the past few centuries...............

I believe people who have strong feelings about today's UK because of wrongs done by Britain in the past are themselves just as guilty of living in the past as people who like singing "Land of Hope and Glory". Both are mired in stuff that belongs to another age.

As for tax cuts, people on low to middle incomes are feeling the pinch at the moment, so I believe some reduction in the tax burden for those groups would be a good idea. NI isn't paid on very low incomes so cutting that won't help the poorest as much as those on middle incomes. Raising the Income Tax threshold is, similarly, not going to help the poorest much, as they already don't pay on most of what they earn. But cutting VAT might help everyone, and reduce inflation.

What public services do you propose cutting to pay for these tax reductions? Here's what we're likely to get when the Truss is PM https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... mic-future .
Apparently her cuts will be really good for folk with an income over £140,000 a year - do you regard that as middle income?

[pwa]

.........There will be many around the world who are having the full schadenfreude, recalling our past history and those events involving various thieving and violent predations by the British state and its agents (commercial & military) upon their country and its denizens. It's hard to blame them, despite such feelings being of no real use in repairing the long tail of the various damages Britain has wrought over the whole globe in the past few centuries...............

I believe people who have strong feelings about today's UK because of wrongs done by Britain in the past are themselves just as guilty of living in the past as people who like singing "Land of Hope and Glory". Both are mired in stuff that belongs to another age.

As for tax cuts, people on low to middle incomes are feeling the pinch at the moment, so I believe some reduction in the tax burden for those groups would be a good idea. NI isn't paid on very low incomes so cutting that won't help the poorest as much as those on middle incomes. Raising the Income Tax threshold is, similarly, not going to help the poorest much, as they already don't pay on most of what they earn. But cutting VAT might help everyone, and reduce inflation.

What public services do you propose cutting to pay for these tax reductions? Here's what we're likely to get when the Truss is PM https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... mic-future .
Apparently her cuts will be really good for folk with an income over £140,000 a year - do you regard that as middle income?

I don't know how tax receipts are fairing, but I'd be surprised if taxes on fuel are not proving to be a bit of a bonus for the state coffers right now. VAT receipts from goods that have gone up in price will have risen too, of course.

I'm not sure why you asked, but no, I don't regard £140,000 as middle income. In my own way of calibrating things, a household of two adults and two kids on a joint income of £30,000 to £60,0000 is in the "normal" income bracket. I don't imagine it is nice trying to bring up two kids on as little as £30k, but people do. £70,000 is not anything more than comfortable these days. That is obviously quite a range and those at the lower end are certainly facing the pinch already. They need some relief.

Inflation is high because of two things. Firstly, fuel costs and their direct and indirect effects. And secondly, wages trying to keep up. To some extent a cut in VAT would reduce inflation and therefore the need for more wage increases. Perhaps it would be better targeted if it were limited to goods and services below a certain price point.

I don't anticipate great choices from Truss.

[Psamathe]

.........There will be many around the world who are having the full schadenfreude, recalling our past history and those events involving various thieving and violent predations by the British state and its agents (commercial & military) upon their country and its denizens. It's hard to blame them, despite such feelings being of no real use in repairing the long tail of the various damages Britain has wrought over the whole globe in the past few centuries...............

I believe people who have strong feelings about today's UK because of wrongs done by Britain in the past are themselves just as guilty of living in the past as people who like singing "Land of Hope and Glory". Both are mired in stuff that belongs to another age.

As for tax cuts, people on low to middle incomes are feeling the pinch at the moment, so I believe some reduction in the tax burden for those groups would be a good idea. NI isn't paid on very low incomes so cutting that won't help the poorest as much as those on middle incomes. Raising the Income Tax threshold is, similarly, not going to help the poorest much, as they already don't pay on most of what they earn. But cutting VAT might help everyone, and reduce inflation.

What public services do you propose cutting to pay for these tax reductions? Here's what we're likely to get when the Truss is PM https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... mic-future .
Apparently her cuts will be really good for folk with an income over £140,000 a year - do you regard that as middle income?

I do wonder how many of those voting n the PM elections are on such incomes. I wonder (don't know) if many would be retired on good pensions but mainly with significant capital. And for that group income tax cuts does not make a dramatic effect to their "after-tax" income. Capital gains tax might help them a bit but it's all probably in combined "tracker" type funds (like many pension pots). I have no quotable facts, just personal suspicion.

It's all become quite surreal. On TV news they've been interviewing Conservative Party members (random individuals) who are "We have to recognise we are choosing a PM for the entire country and select for the entire country not ourselves" - anybody believe or trust them (or why a select group should get sole privilege for such a crucial choice affecting everybody).

Ian

[pwa]

....It's all become quite surreal. On TV news they've been interviewing Conservative Party members (random individuals) who are "We have to recognise we are choosing a PM for the entire country and select for the entire country not ourselves" - anybody believe or trust them (or why a select group should get sole privilege for such a crucial choice affecting everybody).

Ian

We voted for our MPs who are members of a party, and that party chooses and changes its leader as and when. That is the deal, and we all knew it. If the members choose badly (likely) then we will be in a bad mood come the next election and will be inclined to tick a different box.

[Jdsk]

On TV news they've been interviewing Conservative Party members (random individuals) who are "We have to recognise we are choosing a PM for the entire country and select for the entire country not ourselves" - anybody believe or trust them (or why a select group should get sole privilege for such a crucial choice affecting everybody).

We know why it works that way. How much would we have to change to make it work another way?

Jonathan

Edited: Crossed with a closely related post.

[pete75]

We voted for our MPs who are members of a party, and that party chooses and changes its leader as and when. That is the deal, and we all knew it. If the members choose badly (likely) then we will be in a bad mood come the next election and will be inclined to tick a different box.

Actually I didn't vote for my MP, nor did millions who voted at the 2019 election.

People know parties choose their leader. That doesn't make it the best way to choose the leader of the country in between elections.
It's getting a bit excessive now. In the 51 years between Macmillan succeeding Eden and Brown succeeding Blair there were four mid term changes of PM. The current Tories will have done it three times in six years.

[Jdsk]

It's getting a bit excessive now. In the 51 years between Macmillan succeeding Eden and Brown succeeding Blair there were four mid term changes of PM. The current Tories will have done it three times in six years.

This is very important.

We roughly thought that there was a "normal" system based on General Elections. And then something that happened if a Prime Minister relinquished office in between.

This doesn't hold up anymore. It's not that what we're seeing is unconstitutional (although there's plenty elsewhere that is). It's that it isn't fit for purpose.

Jonathan

[pwa]

We voted for our MPs who are members of a party, and that party chooses and changes its leader as and when. That is the deal, and we all knew it. If the members choose badly (likely) then we will be in a bad mood come the next election and will be inclined to tick a different box.

Actually I didn't vote for my MP, nor did millions who voted at the 2019 election.

People know parties choose their leader. That doesn't make it the best way to choose the leader of the country in between elections.
It's getting a bit excessive now. In the 51 years between Macmillan succeeding Eden and Brown succeeding Blair there were four mid term changes of PM. The current Tories will have done it three times in six years.

Yes, it's not brilliant, but I have got used to the idea that a party can change leader and therefore PM mid-term, and I factor that in when voting. I don't assume the current leader will stay the leader. Come the next election, I will probably go Labour, under Starmer, but I won't be assuming that Starmer will remain leader for the duration. He won't be a President, just the bod his party chooses to have at the front for the moment.

[Pebble]

did that many people vote for Boris ? to my mind the landslide victory was to stop Corbyn. Like many other that I know, I really really did not want clown boris in charge of anything, but felt he was the least worst option at the time. Pity our politics is often more about the least worst option instead of the best. Truss or Rishi...

Although saying that I voted for my current MP as he is a good local MP (pity he is a tory), so I voted for him not the party, and I will more than likely vote for him next time around.

Would we be better off with some sort of presidential type election where we actually voted for a leader and not a party? I don't know

[Jdsk]

Would we be better off with some sort of presidential type election where we actually voted for a leader and not a party? I don't know

We'd be a lot better off with a directly elected Head of Government if that was accompanied by a constitutional and effective separation of powers.

The best version of that yet invented and tested seems to be something like the Irish or German model.

Jonathan

[Psamathe]

Would we be better off with some sort of presidential type election where we actually voted for a leader and not a party? I don't know

We'd be a lot better off with a directly elected Head of Government if that was accompanied by a constitutional and effective separation of powers.
...

And no doubt the failed leader will be heaping honours on his friends and supporters. And new PM has to find positions and honours for his/her supporters and House of Lords is a good one when there are not enough Ministerial posts available.

Ian