Front luggage

Cycle-touring, Expeditions, Adventures, Major cycle routes NOT LeJoG (see other special board)
hoogerbooger
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Re: Front luggage

Post by hoogerbooger »

CJ's caution seems fair...but it won't stop me using front bags, but is a reminder to check them.

As an illustration, even with non-flapping bags/items on the front:
P3270122.JPG
My Blackburn alloy low riders failed in Tibet, shaken to death on bumpy roads....luckily going up hill when it actually failed. Alloy fatigues. One side swung inwards & took out 3 spokes. Rack then very dodgy and collapsed completely by time I got back to Lhasa. I couldn't get a replacement rack in Tibet.

An alloy rear rack failure in the Pyrenees was less consequential. The welding where the 3 downward struts join broke and one strut came free, but didn't threaten the spokes, so just zip-tied it.
old fangled
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foxyrider
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Re: Front luggage

Post by foxyrider »

hoogerbooger wrote: 20 Jul 2022, 3:17pm CJ's caution seems fair...but it won't stop me using front bags, but is a reminder to check them.

As an illustration, even with non-flapping bags/items on the front:
P3270122.JPG
My Blackburn alloy low riders failed in Tibet, shaken to death on bumpy roads....luckily going up hill when it actually failed. Alloy fatigues. One side swung inwards & took out 3 spokes. Rack then very dodgy and collapsed completely by time I got back to Lhasa. I couldn't get a replacement rack in Tibet.

An alloy rear rack failure in the Pyrenees was less consequential. The welding where the 3 downward struts join broke and one strut came free, but didn't threaten the spokes, so just zip-tied it.
Your experience is exactly why i wouldn't use Al racks for anything more than day rides and the 3/2 strut rear rack design is a terrible choice for strength/longevity. My only ever rack failure was a similar 3 leg design which broke in the same place as yours. In 20+ years in the trade i saw plenty of dodgy front rack installations, through fork designs attached on just one side of the fork, one guy had somehow managed to fit his 4 point rack behind the fork legs!

Its steel or Ti for me, 4 point fixing with an over wheel brace on the front (and yes i have my eye on getting one of the new Tubus Ti front rack before next years' trip!)
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!
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Sweep
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Re: Front luggage

Post by Sweep »

foxyrider wrote: 20 Jul 2022, 9:41pm

Your experience is exactly why i wouldn't use Al racks for anything more than day rides and the 3/2 strut rear rack design is a terrible choice for strength/longevity. My only ever rack failure was a similar 3 leg design which broke in the same place as yours.
For clarity, do you mean the design which seems to be used by our OP? Where 2 or 3 struts join some distance above the fixing point? From this join a single vertical, often long, bit of metal down to fixing point?

I did have a rack like that years ago and one of the welds went. I just cut that strut off with a dremel - but rack only ever used for day rides with light loading before and after the fail.
Sweep
SA_SA_SA
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Re: Front luggage

Post by SA_SA_SA »

CJ wrote: 20 Jul 2022, 12:31pm Put luggage on the front if you must, but be very careful how you do it ........ So think twice before simply strapping stuff onto your forks .....
...
Even purpose-made front luggage carriers are not necessarily safe. In my 31 years as CTC Technical Officer and private work as an expert witness I've seen the unfortunate results of some very inadequate designs...
Does this mean that, excluding a well fitted tubus tara , low rider designs that are based on an old fashioned 3 (+n) point front carrier style, such as the new?ish? tubus expedition ( https://www.tubus.com/en/products/front ... tion-front ) and others are a better bet for easy proper fitting: I always wondered why this wasnt done in the past, as surely such designs are easier to fit on bikes without mid fork eyelets?
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bikes4two
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Re: Front luggage

Post by bikes4two »

I've discovered a pair of hardly used Tubus Duo lowrider front racks (no U-bow above the wheel) in my bike shed, very much as per those listed by Spa Cycles here.

Peewee in this post here was looking for something similar but if he's not interested but someone else is, please PM me.

£33 post (UK mainland) seems a reasonable price if you like?NOW SOLD
Last edited by bikes4two on 25 Jul 2022, 12:09pm, edited 1 time in total.
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foxyrider
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Re: Front luggage

Post by foxyrider »

Sweep wrote: 21 Jul 2022, 10:32am
foxyrider wrote: 20 Jul 2022, 9:41pm

Your experience is exactly why i wouldn't use Al racks for anything more than day rides and the 3/2 strut rear rack design is a terrible choice for strength/longevity. My only ever rack failure was a similar 3 leg design which broke in the same place as yours.
For clarity, do you mean the design which seems to be used by our OP? Where 2 or 3 struts join some distance above the fixing point? From this join a single vertical, often long, bit of metal down to fixing point?

I did have a rack like that years ago and one of the welds went. I just cut that strut off with a dremel - but rack only ever used for day rides with light loading before and after the fail.
yes
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!
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CJ
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Re: Front luggage

Post by CJ »

SA_SA_SA wrote: 21 Jul 2022, 11:59am
CJ wrote: 20 Jul 2022, 12:31pm Put luggage on the front if you must, but be very careful how you do it ........ So think twice before simply strapping stuff onto your forks .....
...
Even purpose-made front luggage carriers are not necessarily safe. In my 31 years as CTC Technical Officer and private work as an expert witness I've seen the unfortunate results of some very inadequate designs...
Does this mean that low rider designs that are based on an old fashioned 3 (+n) point front carrier style, such as the new?ish? tubus expedition ( https://www.tubus.com/en/products/front ... tion-front ) and others are a better bet for easy proper fitting: I always wondered why this wasnt done in the past, as surely such designs are easier to fit on bikes without mid fork eyelets?
I wouldn't let speculation about how idiot-proof the attachment may be, put me off a thing that's safe when attached properly. Because I'd attach it myself and do not believe myself to be an idiot! Unfortunately that applies also to some who are idiots. And a few of them apparently work in bike shops! That being so, I think low-load front carriers where the two panels are joined to one another are more idiot-proof than the totally separate 'custom' design. And those where the joining together is permanent even more so.

When considering the number and locations of attachment points, the further apart they are in at least two-dimensions, the better. A good criterion would be the surface area of the shape made by linking those points. So a bottle cage, two points in a straight line, is not good and hardly improved by adding a third in line. A line has no area at all, so the fitting has very little resistance to rotation about that line, which has a strong tendency to loosen the screws. Now consider a single panel of a custom low-rider: three points with only the width of a fork blade separating two of them. The area is a very thin triangle: better than a line but not by much. The two mid-fork attachments will experience large shear forces in response to any shaking of the load and such to and fro forces tend to turn the heads of screws in a loosening direction unless they are very tight indeed. Revert to the classic low-rider with hoop over the wheel and now you have four widely-spaced points making a nice big rectangle. The safetly of that design depends very much upon the bending stiffness of the hoop and its attachment to the side panels. Designs where the hoop merely joins the top-front corners of the panels are at least slightly dodgy in my book. Vetta made one like that which once spectacularly stopped a tandem! Better that the hoop continue down to the fork-ends I reckon. Add a whole front carrier structure above the side panels and of course you have a fifth attachment and a very stiff joining together, but at what cost in extra weight? As for the old-fashioned above-wheel front carrier, three points in a triangle is pretty good and it's an easy structure to stiffen with bracing struts here and there, but do you really want all that weight out front and pulling your steering around? There are certainly a lot of factors to consider.
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SA_SA_SA
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Re: Front luggage

Post by SA_SA_SA »

Thanks, very interesting.
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djb
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Re: Front luggage

Post by djb »

Slow rider, 9kg or a bit more really is a low amount, and your rack seems to be a good sturdy one.
I've toured and commuted since the 80s and find it surprising that you have wagging issues.

Could it be perception, if not used to riding bikes with rear loads? This is impossible to know as an outsider , but it does take some adapting to riding with a rear load.

Does it happen only when standing? My 1990 tourer was always like this--inherently more flexible frame of the era, again, impossible for internet people to assess this. My newer bikes and or different bikes are stiffer and don't do this.

Check or have someone check headset, etc for any mechanical issue that shows up with your rather light load.

My wife's xs tourer with 26in wheels initially had a rack that was too high. I got a two layer rack with lower rails to have panniers lower, so that as well as being physically lower, made a real difference in a less "tippy" bike, and she had more weight than you.

I didn't want to buy a tubus double rail rack like I have (Logo model) as they are quite dear, but found a perfectly good Trek Bontrager dual rail model for about 70 dollars Canadian, and it works great. Good solid rack.
I've toured and commuted with aluminum racks forever, and a good quality one works fine, never had an issue and I ride year round commuting.

Lastly, are you comfortable with the hoods set and angled so low down, or did the bike come that way. They really are set low and forward.

Cheers
djb
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Re: Front luggage

Post by djb »

hoogerbooger wrote: 20 Jul 2022, 3:17pm CJ's caution seems fair...but it won't stop me using front bags, but is a reminder to check them.

As an illustration, even with non-flapping bags/items on the front:
P3270122.JPG
My Blackburn alloy low riders failed in Tibet, shaken to death on bumpy roads....luckily going up hill when it actually failed. Alloy fatigues. One side swung inwards & took out 3 spokes. Rack then very dodgy and collapsed completely by time I got back to Lhasa. I couldn't get a replacement rack in Tibet.

An alloy rear rack failure in the Pyrenees was less consequential. The welding where the 3 downward struts join broke and one strut came free, but didn't threaten the spokes, so just zip-tied it.
Wow, two rack failures. I've never known anyone to have that happen.

Re Tibet and rough roads, my Latin American trips on rough roads really reinforced for me
using wide tires and lower pressures for the conditions.
I too was concerned about rough roads, more about pannier hardware coming loose, but good sturdy racks, fattened up rack rails with rubber hosing and no inserts in my ortiebs to reduce rack movement and vibrating, plus the tire pressures, worked great on the bike and my comfort also.
hoogerbooger
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Re: Front luggage

Post by hoogerbooger »

As further illustration, I have previously posted the bodge I ended up with to get me to Katmandu:
P4100021.JPG
Brucey pointed out that the orientation of the hoop was not good. IIRC he said the hoop over the wheel should be as far forward and as perpendicular as possible to the fork

It was a rack that had been used for a good number of fully loaded trips, with fatigue leading to the eye attachment at one fork blade eventually shearing off.... after the strut it attached first going wobbly( without me realising)...and that side of the rack swinging in and catching spokes.

Presumably the bad hoop angle had allowed more lateral movement and fatigue. But the principal problem was me not using my brain and thinking this is an old alloy rack......before I set out.
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djb
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Re: Front luggage

Post by djb »

hoogerbooger wrote: 23 Jul 2022, 6:37pm As further illustration, I have previously posted the bodge I ended up with to get me to Katmandu:
P4100021.JPG
Brucey pointed out that the orientation of the hoop was not good. IIRC he said the hoop over the wheel should be as far forward and as perpendicular as possible to the fork

It was a rack that had been used for a good number of fully loaded trips, with fatigue leading to the eye attachment at one fork blade eventually shearing off.... after the strut it attached first going wobbly( without me realising)...and that side of the rack swinging in and catching spokes.

Presumably the bad hoop angle had allowed more lateral movement and fatigue. But the principal problem was me not using my brain and thinking this is an old alloy rack......before I set out.
Great shot and great bodge, love it.
I had, and still have, one of these Blackburn racks. Got it in 1990 or something. Last used it already about 8, 9 years ago, and knew it is inherently prone to being wobbly and I always lightly loaded it, even back in the day on paved trips on good roads.
This is why I got some tubus racks for my more ambitious trips, and am really glad I did. Way more sturdy, newer touring bike way more sturdy too, a world of difference from the old stuff.

My old rack back in the 90s
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cycle tramp
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Re: Front luggage

Post by cycle tramp »

CJ wrote: 20 Jul 2022, 12:31pm Put luggage on the front if you must, but be very careful how you do it, as anything that can become caught in a front wheel is liable to stop it going round.. Then ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky?

So I would not put any front rack on any bike of mine or my loved ones, that comes from a manufacturer with anything less than an excellent record for similar products. And I would not let any person fit it without long experience of not only cycle mechanics but also cycle touring.
After taking some time to read and understand CJ's post I can see where he's coming from.
I've used the carradice front limpet system, thorn's own midforked low riders, and tubus low riders in the past, and am currently using surly front rack right now...

However the idea you can simply bolt any front carrying system to any bike, in any manner without a bit of thought and not have the risk of bad things happening is best dismissed early from one's mind.

Certainly there are things I would look out for -
I'd want room for a generous front tyre (+40 mm wide to absorb some of the road shock) with the frame geometry causing as little front end flop as possible.

I'd want a rack from a known manufacturer which already had a series of good reviews

I'd mount the rack in such a way that it would put the front panniers either over the front hub or behind it, so if anything went 'ping' the panniers may (as in May or May not) fall away from the wheel, rather than onto it.

Following another thread on this forum, I'd select my own bolts with a higher sheer value than the ones which were supplied. I'd also have longer bolts so I they could pass through the frame mount and i could then put a nylon nut on the other end - to stop them from shaking loose.

When the front rack is loaded I ride sympathetically, avoiding pot holes, and if I ride off road, I might drop the front tyre pressure abit. I also keep my speed low when descending any hill.

Equally I'd load the rack sympathetically.
20220122_120757.jpg
As you can see the front rack's been loaded, I've got 5kg of animal feed on each side of the rack as close as I can get the to sit over the front hub, but even more importantly my new bucket is carrying my lunch!
Rather than simply try and attach the bucket to the platform of the rack, I've stopped the bucket from moving on the horizontal plane by attaching it via bungee cord to my accessory bar, which is attached to the fork steerer. So although the weight of the bucket is being supported by the rack, it's not going to fall as I've secured it to the accessory bar. To stop the bucket bouncing on the rack, a secondary bungee cord , from the bucket to the rack has been used.

If I was ever to get back into loaded touring/ cycle camping (and not be sectioned under the mental health act) I would secure my sleeping bag or tent in the same way - their weight would be supported by the platform, any movement would be stopped by strapping them to the accessory bar (perhaps one made up of an old handlebar and stem). And then another strap from the tent or sleeping bag to the platform to stop any bouncing.
Last edited by cycle tramp on 24 Jul 2022, 4:32pm, edited 1 time in total.
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djb
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Re: Front luggage

Post by djb »

Slowroad wrote: 17 Jul 2022, 9:46pm I've got a very nice little touring bike, fits me well (I'm 5'2") but even with using fairly lightweight camping gear (about 12 kilos) I'm finding there's a bit of a 'tail wagging dog' effect. Wondering what options there might be for carrying some of it on the front, but I've always been a bit reluctant to go for front panniers as there's then so many bags!
Any suggestions of options gratefully received, the bike has 32 x 559 wheels.
If taking a train, having more bags clearly means more things to carry, and if going by plane, then there's the front rack to take off and put on, and of course more panniers to deal with luggage wise.
So there's always going to be these factors....but not the end of the world.

But some added points to your direct question-- I've tended always to prefer how a bike handles with four panniers, even if they aren't full. More even distribution can mean more enjoyable cornering and really, the whole riding experience, which to me is a big part of the whole experience of riding a bike.

I'm sure most of us have toured with rear panniers only too, and it can be fine also--really depends on how much weight and how the bike is with it.

A really practical point though with four panniers is having more space at the end of day when you get groceries for supper, next days breakfast and maybe extra stuff for snacks etc.
Super handy to easily stow things, and to me, totally worth having the front rack and 2 more panniers.

Something to consider.

Any possibility of you borrowing a front rack+panniers to get a feel for it?
Slowroad
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Re: Front luggage

Post by Slowroad »

Slow rider, 9kg or a bit more really is a low amount, and your rack seems to be a good sturdy one.
I've toured and commuted since the 80s and find it surprising that you have wagging issues.

Could it be perception, if not used to riding bikes with rear loads? This is impossible to know as an outsider , but it does take some adapting to riding with a rear load.

Does it happen only when standing? My 1990 tourer was always like this--inherently more flexible frame of the era, again, impossible for internet people to assess this. My newer bikes and or different bikes are stiffer and don't do this.

Check or have someone check headset, etc for any mechanical issue that shows up with your rather light load.

My wife's xs tourer with 26in wheels initially had a rack that was too high. I got a two layer rack with lower rails to have panniers lower, so that as well as being physically lower, made a real difference in a less "tippy" bike, and she had more weight than you.

I didn't want to buy a tubus double rail rack like I have (Logo model) as they are quite dear, but found a perfectly good Trek Bontrager dual rail model for about 70 dollars Canadian, and it works great. Good solid rack.
I've toured and commuted with aluminum racks forever, and a good quality one works fine, never had an issue and I ride year round commuting.

Lastly, are you comfortable with the hoods set and angled so low down, or did the bike come that way. They really are set low and forward.

Cheers
Hi djb, I've been cycle-touring since July 1982! 40 years and still learning... :-) The rear-end wobble is pretty slight, but I think you may have identified an issue - I have noted a slight click in the headset, which I can have looked at. Also you mentioned the bars - yes, that's how they were when I got it second-hand - and I'm intending to have them tipped up a bit as I get aching shoulders. Would have done it myself but I can't undo the bolts. Thanks for pointing those out.
Everyone - thanks for the comments, I think I'll try some small adjustments and see how that goes. I'll carry on looking at other options for racks - but it really was very difficult to get anything small enough - and also possibly some new bags which are a bit wider at the top than the bottom so I can move them a bit further forward. I think I'll drop the idea of using front racks or bike-packing options, several of you have confirmed my misgivings.
Cheers,
Slowroad
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