Bicycle comfort is it a dream?

Skids
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Bicycle comfort is it a dream?

Post by Skids »

Hi,
As I get older I am struggling to remain comfortable on my various upright bicycles. I am not a "serious cyclist" but I enjoy leisure riding on lanes and tracks. Recently I have downloaded and read Colin Thompson/John Russell's paper about setting up riding position and have discovered I have made most of the mistakes listed in the paper.

At the moment I am able to set my bike up to either cause pain across my shoulders, upper back and wrists or to cause me to sit on the rear edge of my previously comfortable brooks saddle, the rear of which is basically thin leather over a steel frame, with the result of a very painful rear end after ten or so miles. The issues with the saddle are no doubt exacerbated by my recent loss of weight some of which has been from my derrière.

I understand that I will have to follow the instructions in the paper and experiment making small incremental changes followed by test rides and I wonder if others have gone through this process and if it had a happy ending ?

best wishes

Simon
Jdsk
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Re: Bicycle comfort is it a dream?

Post by Jdsk »

Yes, every HPV that I've had has ended up a lot more comfortable than what you're describing.

Could you add a side-on video or photo of you riding it, please.

And becoming familiar with all of the possible adjustments is essential. If anything's stuck or you're not sure how to do it then getting it right won't be the pleasure that it should be.

Jonathan
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Cugel
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Re: Bicycle comfort is it a dream?

Post by Cugel »

Achieving a comfortable position is certainly the first step. There is no hard & fast formula, though, only various considerations about various aspects of your position that can begin with tried & tested starting positions. But, especially as you age, various body parts may begin to demand non-standard positions. So you have to experiment, which can be a bit tedious, especially if the experiments don't give you an early result. I've been doing that for 20 years now. (my early 50s to mid 70s).

These days you can also look for bike components designed to aid comfort in various ways, then substitute one or more of them for what you have now. Bars with a different shape, sweep, depth etc.; stems of a different length and angle, perhaps also with elastomer suspension built in; seat posts with various degrees of set-back, perhaps also with "compliance" aspects (lots of bend, elastomers or a spring); fatter tyres; squishy bar tapes; better inserts in the trews or shorts; a different kind of saddle to park them on.

Of course, the component solutions cost money! Best to start with the positional stuff, then, considering further improvements-via-components only if comfort is still an issue.

I will, though, recommend stuff such as fatter tyres, elastomer stems & seatposts and better inserts in shorts. These tend to be very effective for everyone, even racing snakes and those cyclists made of rhino hide. :-)

Cugel
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Paulatic
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Re: Bicycle comfort is it a dream?

Post by Paulatic »

Sometimes it’s not all about the bike.
What are you doing about the body? You can’t defy ageing and getting stiffer but you can defer it a bit. Pilates classes helped me a lot. I’ve lapsed from classes since Covid but still do some moves especially when I feel niggles coming on.
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Jdsk
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Re: Bicycle comfort is it a dream?

Post by Jdsk »

There's a vast amount of technology and expense that's available. From what you've told us I'd concentrate on the fit with your current bike(s) and components. But if you can't get comfortable with those after adjusting everything possible then it might be necessary to change some of it.

Jonathan
slowster
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Re: Bicycle comfort is it a dream?

Post by slowster »

My experience was that the most important thing was getting the right amount of saddle setback. If memory serves I moved it back by approximately 10mm, then another ~10mm, and finally moved it forward by ~5mm, i.e. ~15mm back in total. I don't think it is something which needs to be very precise, just there or thereabouts, because I think we tend to move around on the saddle by at least a few mm anyway.

I used 531colin's tip of riding on a slight upward incline while gripping the bars lightly to judge when the saddle was roughly in the right position, i.e. when the slight increase in power output prompted by the change in gradient caused me to start pulling on the bars slightly. In other words, instead of my hands resting lightly on the tops of the bars, they lifted up slightly under the extra power output, and my fingers started to press lightly against the underside of the bars.
Skids wrote: 22 Jul 2022, 7:47am previously comfortable brooks saddle, the rear of which is basically thin leather over a steel frame, with the result of a very painful rear end after ten or so miles
That does suggest to me that your saddle is too far forward. My Brooks B17 Narrow has the usual two dimples corresponding to the position of my sit bones, and the dimples are well forward of the part of the leather on the metal cantle plate.

A problem with moving a Brooks saddle further back is that they have short rails, and some (me included) have found it necessary to find a seat post with more layback in order to get the saddle far back enough.

I think once the saddle position is right, it is easier to determine what changes you want/need to make to the bars/stem. Modern ahead stems with removable faceplates make it easy to experiment with stem length and stem rise, and the basic models are much cheaper than quill stems. If you have more than one bike, I would concentrate on getting the position sorted on just one of them, preferably one that used an ahead stem.
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531colin
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Re: Bicycle comfort is it a dream?

Post by 531colin »

Basically, what Slowster said.
I imagine your painful shoulders/back/wrists are caused by having too much weight on your hands?
The remedy for that is to move your saddle back to take weight off your hands.....you can get the same effect by sitting on the back of the saddle, but that isn't a permanent solution. Once you have found the right saddle position to get the right amount of weight on your hands, you may want to try a slightly shorter stem. (As Slowster says, you could well need a seatpost with a longer setback to get the saddle in the right position.)
Why do you suddenly have too much weight on your hands on a bike which has been comfortable for years? Because as we age, we can't pedal at the same power as we used to.....and when you push the pedal down, the "equal and opposite reaction" of Newtonian physics tends to support your upper body which is cantilevered out in front.
Saddle setback also governs how much work is done by the quadriceps and hamstring muscle groups....pushing the saddle back loads the hamstrings and spares the quads........I don't think thats a reason not to push the saddle back, its just an explanation of why your hamstrings may protest at first....but the hamstrings will get used to extra work, and your shoulders won't!
JohnMorgan
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Re: Bicycle comfort is it a dream?

Post by JohnMorgan »

Are you sure the frame is the right size? It could be you move the saddle etc to no avail if the frame is wrong.
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horizon
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Re: Bicycle comfort is it a dream?

Post by horizon »

JohnMorgan wrote: 22 Jul 2022, 1:22pm Are you sure the frame is the right size? It could be you move the saddle etc to no avail if the frame is wrong.
You can move the saddle to no avail on any size bike. That's the problem - the rearward saddle movement/position is limited by the saddle rails and seat tube angle. I think the fact that bikes come equipped with a standard seatpost and no less than 73 deg seatpost angle makes people believe that any further adjustment must surely be as unnecessary as it is impossible. IMV they are wrong, and not just IMV given the number of "layback" seatposts sold. As regular readers of this forum know (and no doubt bored to death by :) ), I use a VK adaptor to achieve blissful comfort on all my bikes. But they don't tell you that in the brochure (or at the bike shop).
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a.twiddler
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Re: Bicycle comfort is it a dream?

Post by a.twiddler »

When I was younger I used to ride much more than I do now. I look back in amazement and see that I used to ride 200 -250 miles per week. Although various parts used to hurt, I didn't take much notice and it would pass. I knew that my (probably unsuitable) frame was adjusted and adapted to the best it could be. I wonder where I used to get all that time for cycling.

Over the years with marriage and kids I still used to get out on the bike, and later with the kids as well, though the mileage was much less. Lower mileage on allegedly better quality bikes and I still managed OK until about a decade ago.

I found I was developing a stiff neck, so the bars slowly crept higher, then my main drop bar bike was replaced by something that would still take drop bars but with a higher range of adjustment.
Maybe due to more weight on the saddle, combined with a less muscly posterior, my formerly comfortable Middlemores leather saddle was becoming uncomfortable and I replaced it with something with more padding. Due to tingly feet, I fitted wider pedals though still with toe clips and straps.
I'd always been prone to tingling fingers and got round this with extra handlebar padding. It's never got any worse over the years.
So I would say that my bike is as comfortable as it's likely to be. Certainly when I ride it I get on and everything just "fits". It's only on longer rides that the aches and pains start to appear.

As you get older it's often not the actual riding that is difficult, but the getting on and off. I had wondered when I would get to the stage when I would find a Mixte frame helpful, especially after buying a folding bike which was just so easy to hop on and off. I've never been very flexible and it's not getting any better with age. I find stretching exercises help before getting going.

However about 2 years ago I bought a recumbent bike, which I concede is not for everyone, and the aches and pains just aren't there any more!

It's nice to ride my drop bar bike occasionally, especially for a bit of shopping as it's quite a versatile bike and fairly anonymous compared to the recumbent but for longer pain free trips I now use the recumbent.
Skids
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Re: Bicycle comfort is it a dream?

Post by Skids »

Wow what a response, many thanks to all. I'll try to answer your points in the order of the posts but first a little more background is probably in order. I have a number of cycles one of which is a comfortable recumbent trilke Now I have the idea of trying to ride the Sustrans route "Way of the Roses" starting in Morecambe and it would be great to use the trike. However, the obvious way to get to Morecambe is by train and this is where the issues start.

My rail route will be East Coast Main Line LNER to Leeds the Northern across to Morecambe. Unfortunately LNER have all sorts of restrictions which rule out a number of my bicycles including the trike. These restrictions include overall size restrictions and, my favourite, a maximum tyre width of 55mm. So with all this rail company hassle in mind I think I might try to ride my Moulton APB. I last rode the APB last summer and it caused me the discomfort described in my original post. Since then it has languished in the back of the shed somewhat unloved. However, while not the ideal bike for the 170 mile ride it will at least be allowed on trains especially when split it two.

@JDsk. I will try and obtain a photograph and post it for review.

@Cugel. Some great ideas. At the moment Moulton is fitted with butterfly bars but I can see that a taller stem may be needed. As its a Moulton there is no option for a suspension seat post but it should not be needed as the bike has simple suspension. It is fitted with 1.9 inch tyres which help and should comply with LNER's restriction and provide a level of additional squish.

@Paulatic "What are you doing about the body" probably not enough especially as it has some known defects! I visit a physio from time to time, do the exercises and stretches for a time and then lapse back to bad habits. I must try harder!

@Slowster. I have started making the adjustments and have moved the brooks saddle back approx 15mm. This appears to have taken my weight off my arms but I have not had a chance to go for a proper ride yet. The downside is that most of my weight is now carried on the saddle which does not feel very comfortable as I'm sure I'm now almost sitting on the rear of the saddle and missing those two dimples that you mention. It does seem odd that moving the saddle back causes me to sit further back but I suppose I have rotated upwards. I think my next change will be to fit an alternative saddle, I have a SMP Trk that I can try.

@531Colin. I'm sure you are correct about the weight on my hands however I would not describe the original set up as extreme; I've been getting more upright for years. I'm hoping that a saddle with longer rails and some extra cushion will work otherwise I will need a tube bender on the long seat post. This whole getting older just "sucks", still its better than the alternative. Having though about your advice I can see that if the saddle is moved a long way back it would also have to be lowered to keep the same distance to the pedals and at some point the bicycle becomes a recumbent.

@JohnMorgan. There is every chance that at least one of my bicycles is the wrong size but the issue is knowing what is the correct size. All I can say is that I can reach both the pedals and the ground without issue and I don't bang my knees on the handle bars. I'm beginning to think that seat tube angle is perhaps more important and that I and most leisure riders need a relaxed angle by which I mean one that places the saddle rearwards by default i.e more Dutch roadster than time trial bike.

@horizon. I had never heard of the VK adaptor (for others in my position look here https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/saddles/vk-saddle-adjuster/). Looks good and is quite affordable. I shall keep this in mind if I feel the need to move the saddle further over the rear wheel.

@a.twiddler. With some minor edits I could use your post to describe my own cycling background. What sort of recumbent do you ride? I have an ICE Q NT which is very comfortable but as I wrote above not allowed on the trains of the East Coast Main Line. Mind you I have yet to investigate how small a bag or bags I can fit it into when partially disassembled.

A big thank you (again) to all of you for taking the time to write such thought provoking posts. I think that based on these posts I should be able to become more comfortable on my upright bicycles (a.k.a upwrongs) than I am at present but that I will probably not be as comfortable as my younger self was so many decades ago. I shall also try to remember to do some stretches and restart my attempts at increasing my core strength (great more of the plank exercise!!!!) as it will probably help with everything.

best wishes

Simon
JohnMorgan
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Re: Bicycle comfort is it a dream?

Post by JohnMorgan »

Good luck :-‘
a.twiddler
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Re: Bicycle comfort is it a dream?

Post by a.twiddler »

My recumbent is a LWB Iowa Linear. Its claim to fame is that the main frame is an aluminium beam with bicycle bits front and rear and a garden chair on top. It took me a while to learn to ride it confidently but it has become a comfortable and dependable bike. It's designed to fold but it's not like a Brompton which folds in seconds. It certainly wouldn't go on a train. It starts off as 88" long, possibly longer than most tandems. Linear did a range of frame lengths from 36" to 48" and mine is apparently a medium at about 42" but there is such a range of adjustability in the seat, underseat bars and even the sliding bottom bracket that having a range of sizes seems a bit OTT.

Getting unusual sized bikes on trains is a bit of a dilemma. A small wheeled folder would get on as luggage. A standard bike if pre booked would get on as long as someone didn't get there first, or there wasn't a mountain of luggage there already. Despite some heroic trips on Bromptons being posted it probably wouldn't be most people's choice for a tour particularly if you have comfort/ distance issues but it takes away the anxiety of taking a bike on a train.
So the solution, apart from dismantling your trike and being at the mercy of the train companies as to whether it fits their criteria, seems to lie elsewhere. How many are going with you on your trip? It might not be a green solution, but would it be worth hiring a van at the start and end of your trip?

I also have a Delta trike which I'm still at the stage of evaluating but one of the features of mine that it has a narrow track of about 28/29" which is narrower than the underseat bars on the Linear, though its own bars are slightly wider. I can wiggle through "A" frame barriers on it though I have also just put the bars extreme left or right and stood up, lifted the front end and shuffled through with the rear wheels following easily through the gap. This is promising for future cycle route or towpath excursions. It's possible that it could be got through "kissing gate" type barriers by standing it on its rear wheels as I have done with the Linear but I've not tried it with the trike yet. Not sure how you'd do that with a tadpole trike though. If the NT stands for Narrow Track it ought to get through other types of barriers OK.

As for adjusting conventional bikes, it's such a personal thing but being a relative shorthouse I've always had to compromise somewhere with frame sizes so my case will be different from yours. If you were a super serious rider I suppose a bike fit might be a solution but there is plenty of stuff which you can find online for free. I was very lucky with the Linear as due to its extreme adjustability it fits me perfectly but even among recumbents there is a lot of variation, and from comments from others not all, or even very many recumbents have that range, from shortest to longest leg length in one bike, or manageable seat height or other factors.
mumbojumbo
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Re: Bicycle comfort is it a dream?

Post by mumbojumbo »

Why not ride for a shorter time but do so more often .Any pain I get happens after an hour or so. Also ride a range of bikes.Make it fun and forget the academic strictures.
Stradageek
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Re: Bicycle comfort is it a dream?

Post by Stradageek »

Skids wrote: 22 Jul 2022, 7:47am Hi,
As I get older I am struggling to remain comfortable on my various upright bicycles.
Simon
Hi Simon

Yup, experienced all those problems, exacerbated by having very long legs and short arms and a chronic back problem. At one point I lost all the strength in my right arm through compression of my cervical vertebrae.

The solution, as I've said many and oft, is to move to the dark side. There is no wrist pain (you neither pull nor lean on the handlebars on a recumbent, the hands just rest lightly to steer) no saddle pain (it's a full length reclined seat) and no neck pain (think relaxing on a settee in front of the TV). Also, if my back plays up I can easily cure the problem by going for a bike ride on any of my recumbents, the gentle massaging by the full length seat simple eases the pain away.

Additional bonuses are no wet feet - ever - no fear of headwinds, and a new found fascination with clouds and birds of prey. Motorists think you're disabled and therefore give you LOADS of space and if you are unfortunate enough to crash you can't go over the handlebars you just slide sideways to a graceful halt with the seat edge taking all the damage. And, of course you are faster than an upright bike, that's why they're banned from bike racing.

What's not to like :wink:
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