Legal lights?

[mjr]

A slight issue with StVZO lights is they don't illuminate all road signs!

Great points above. Just a clarification on this: StVZO lights can theoretically illuminate reflective road signs enough to read them, but are not required to because the standard sets a maximum brightness above the horizontal (2.0 lux) and no minimum.

Oh and one other thing: Aldi have not sold StVZO lights for years. Recently, they sell the same antisocial dazzling junk as almost all UK bike shops. Lidl sometimes sell junk lights too, but usually have at least one K~ marked StVZO light in their cycling special offers.

[slowster]

The only time I have seen any value in a flashing front light is in daytime on a winding singletrack road in a wooded area.

Disagree. Flashing lights have become synonymous with 'bicycle' and so send a message to other road users as to the nature of traffic around them.

As freiston pointed out, any such message is at the price of potentially impairing other road users' ability to judge correctly the cyclist's position and speed.

In safety critical applications the use of flashing lights is generally very restricted and limited, otherwise people can be distracted and confused by them. Flashing lights for cyclists have some value if they are rare and exceptional, but once they are widespread they just become visual clutter which is inferior to a good quality fixed light. The Germans have got cycle lighting right.

[LancsGirl]

Thanks very much for the informative replies folks.

So my takeaway is:

1. Not to worry about being strictly legal. As it might not be that easy. Presumably if I've got some sort of reasonably useful lights on after lighting up time, it would need a particularly pedantic police officer to actually attempt to prosecute me for non-BS marked lights. Unless the offence was combined with other far worse breaches.

2. High quality hub driven lights are jolly good. I can't really afford a new front wheel right now, but it's been at the back of my mind for a while, as much as anything to have a source of USB power for gadgets.

3. Flashing lights are a subject of discussion. As a driver I think i notice them more, and I think it makes me think "cyclist, watch out". But as with all discussions about visibility the obvious fallacy is making assumptions about what you do and don't notice. Because of course you don't notice what you don't notice.*

As it happens I'm reading CycleCraft, and whatshisname is a big fan of pedal reflectors, which I've got. I'm also tempted by the reflective/lit ankle bands. On the basis that movement is noticable.

My slight problem with some rear lights is that I don't really have enough seat post showing to mount a light there. The saddle isn't that high, and I use the saddle pack. So I have to make sure whatever rear light I get will mount on the saddlepack.

*Actually, that's not a complete fallacy. I was driving at night on Wednesday and a breakdown vehicle was attending another car. I saw the reflective strips on the recovery driver's ankles first, from a great distance. Then I saw the whole of him, in hi-viz gear. Then, a lot closer, I saw the driver of the vehicle, standing very near him, but dressed in "ordinary" dark clothes. So I "noticed" the reflective strips at at least twice the distance, maybe three times, away than I "noticed" the driver.

[Nearholmer]

The only way to be sure whether, and if so to what degree, flashing lights help would be to carry out proper testing, and my understanding from links posted in other threads is that tests show that they do help, by allowing people to quickly identify that there is a bike in their field of view.

Once things get to multiple lights, flashing or not, my personal observation as a car driver is that picking-out what is actually in the field of view, whether it is moving, and if so how quickly, can be genuinely challenging, especially at multi-lane roundabouts and junctions, where one can be presented with a wall of white lights, and few other clues. A motorcycle is particularly difficult to spot against such a background, ditto a bike with a steady light; either can be moving towards you, but not present themselves as a moving object, or not as close as it actually is. I think that moving cars may be easier to recognise because the brain can identify them as two lights getting further apart from one another as the come closer.

[mjr]

But as with all discussions about visibility the obvious fallacy is making assumptions about what you do and don't notice. Because of course you don't notice what you don't notice.*

Personally, I think bigger fallacies are assuming that seen=noticed and that noticed=doesn't injure. Some suggest that being noticed too early is also a problem, allowing the driver time to forget that they need to avoid you while they deal with something else (a parked car, a junction, their phone...) in the meantime.

As posted in the past, I also don't like drivers to identify me as a cyclist too early. I'd rather they thought my big steady bright-but-shaped/dipped lights could be a motorbike that could seriously dent their car, rather than an insubstantial cyclist.

[Bmblbzzz]

Thanks very much for the informative replies folks.

So my takeaway is:

1. Not to worry about being strictly legal. As it might not be that easy. Presumably if I've got some sort of reasonably useful lights on after lighting up time, it would need a particularly pedantic police officer to actually attempt to prosecute me for non-BS marked lights. Unless the offence was combined with other far worse breaches.

I think the amazing thing is that a small number of cyclists are very concerned about having strictly legal lighting, when manufacturers, importers, retailers, police, the legal profession, and other road users don't seem at all concerned and largely don't even know.

2. High quality hub driven lights are jolly good. I can't really afford a new front wheel right now, but it's been at the back of my mind for a while, as much as anything to have a source of USB power for gadgets.

They are jolly good indeed for a whole range of reasons, but also jolly spendy. Cost nothing to run though.

3. Flashing lights are a subject of discussion. As a driver I think i notice them more, and I think it makes me think "cyclist, watch out". But as with all discussions about visibility the obvious fallacy is making assumptions about what you do and don't notice. Because of course you don't notice what you don't notice.*

Another thing is that being a cyclist, you are more likely to notice other cyclists and bikes, and to correctly interpret them as such.

As it happens I'm reading CycleCraft, and whatshisname is a big fan of pedal reflectors, which I've got. I'm also tempted by the reflective/lit ankle bands. On the basis that movement is noticable.

John Franklin? He's also sometimes regarded as "a subject for discussion"! Though not so much in the context of lighting, I think. I'd say pedal reflectors and/or ankle bands are great in the absence of other lighting, or if your batteries are failing, but don't contribute much in the presence of decent lights. It's going to depend on all sorts of environmental factors though and the lighting output (angle and strength) from the driver's vehicle.

My slight problem with some rear lights is that I don't really have enough seat post showing to mount a light there. The saddle isn't that high, and I use the saddle pack. So I have to make sure whatever rear light I get will mount on the saddlepack.

*Actually, that's not a complete fallacy. I was driving at night on Wednesday and a breakdown vehicle was attending another car. I saw the reflective strips on the recovery driver's ankles first, from a great distance. Then I saw the whole of him, in hi-viz gear. Then, a lot closer, I saw the driver of the vehicle, standing very near him, but dressed in "ordinary" dark clothes. So I "noticed" the reflective strips at at least twice the distance, maybe three times, away than I "noticed" the driver.

A saddlepack tends to wobble a bit. Could the rear light be mounted on a mudguard or seat stay? But a saddlepack is at least not obscured.

[axel_knutt]

The only way to be sure whether, and if so to what degree, flashing lights help would be to carry out proper testing,

I did my own experiment.
Counting what percentage of passing cars pull over far enough for their nearside wheels to cross the white line, it was much higher with the rear light flashing (but I can't remember the figures after 15-16 years).

[LancsGirl]

Thanks very much for the informative replies folks.

So my takeaway is:

1. Not to worry about being strictly legal. As it might not be that easy. Presumably if I've got some sort of reasonably useful lights on after lighting up time, it would need a particularly pedantic police officer to actually attempt to prosecute me for non-BS marked lights. Unless the offence was combined with other far worse breaches.

I think the amazing thing is that a small number of cyclists are very concerned about having strictly legal lighting, when manufacturers, importers, retailers, police, the legal profession, and other road users don't seem at all concerned and largely don't even know.

Personally I'm not "very" concerned. I'd just like to experience the warm glow of saying - "this bike is completely and utterly legal". But as you say, nobody else seems that bothered, so there's no reason why I should be. Well, I'd like to experience any sort of warm glow really. But that's another story.

2. High quality hub driven lights are jolly good. I can't really afford a new front wheel right now, but it's been at the back of my mind for a while, as much as anything to have a source of USB power for gadgets.

They are jolly good indeed for a whole range of reasons, but also jolly spendy. Cost nothing to run though.

Yes, top of the range hub, wheel, lights is £395 at Spa Cycles in Harrogate.

3. Flashing lights are a subject of discussion. As a driver I think i notice them more, and I think it makes me think "cyclist, watch out". But as with all discussions about visibility the obvious fallacy is making assumptions about what you do and don't notice. Because of course you don't notice what you don't notice.*

Another thing is that being a cyclist, you are more likely to notice other cyclists and bikes, and to correctly interpret them as such.

Well, yes. But I suppose that's a truism that only emphasises the need to get more people who drive also riding cycles. Or instead of.

My slight problem with some rear lights is that I don't really have enough seat post showing to mount a light there. The saddle isn't that high, and I use the saddle pack. So I have to make sure whatever rear light I get will mount on the saddlepack.

*Actually, that's not a complete fallacy. I was driving at night on Wednesday and a breakdown vehicle was attending another car. I saw the reflective strips on the recovery driver's ankles first, from a great distance. Then I saw the whole of him, in hi-viz gear. Then, a lot closer, I saw the driver of the vehicle, standing very near him, but dressed in "ordinary" dark clothes. So I "noticed" the reflective strips at at least twice the distance, maybe three times, away than I "noticed" the driver.

A saddlepack tends to wobble a bit. Could the rear light be mounted on a mudguard or seat stay? But a saddlepack is at least not obscured.

Maybe. I don't know if it wobbles a lot. I'd be inclined more to think of any wobble as mechanical flashing. The rear face is near vertical, and a good height. To get a light vertical on the mudquard it would have to be very low. I'm not sure about the seat stay. From the point of view of a road user behind me, but slightly to one side, that might be hidden from view by wheel/spokes/mudguard. In fact, I just had a look. Yes, from the point of view of a driver, behind the bike and slightly to the side, one of the seat stays is completely obscured by the mudguard.

[Bmblbzzz]

Oh, I like the idea of a wobbling light being "mechanical flashing".

[slowster]

A Son hub dynamo with Edelux front light is a very nice set up, but it is not necessary to buy such a premium product. The Shimano dynamo hubs are very good value. If you are prepared to build your own wheel (or have a friend who will do it), a Shimano dynamo hub can be bought for £30-£40. Alternatively Decathlon sell a complete wheel suitable for rim brakes for £69.99.

https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/28-double ... R-p-203408

Bikester can be a good source of lights, e.g.:

https://www.bikester.co.uk/busch-muller ... cgid=37003

That light is designed for rack mounting, but can be bolted to the top of a mudguard with a suitable bracket, e.g. https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m5b0s215p30 ... der-T70025

This light is designed to be clamped to the seat stay, and like the one above includes B&M's LineTec technology to emit a patch of light, rather than a point source (I have the version of this light that mounts on the mudguard):

https://www.bikester.co.uk/busch-muller ... cgid=37003

Front lights vary hugely in price depending upon what lux rating etc. you want, and I have been able to buy good B&M front lights very cheaply by searching and waiting for a bargain. Incidentally, the Son Edelux front light uses a B&M lamp unit, and the B&M light with that lamp unit costs much less.

I think those sorts of prices compare pretty favourably to the price of good quality battery lights, especially those that meet Stvzo.

[andrew_s]

Front lights vary hugely in price depending upon what lux rating etc. you want, and I have been able to buy good B&M front lights very cheaply by searching and waiting for a bargain. Incidentally, the Son Edelux front light uses a B&M lamp unit, and the B&M light with that lamp unit costs much less.

The Edelux II is essentially the same as the B+M Cyo Premium Senso (the non-T version*), in a robust and weatherproof housing, and with a properly reliable switching arrangement.
The Edelux does give a little more light because the LED has better heat skinking, but not so much that you'd notice without careful testing.

* personally, I'd go for the non-T over the commoner Cyo T. If I want daytime lights, there's a perfectly usable switch, and the daytime light uses as much power as the nighttime light, and therefore makes charging things very slightly more complicated.

On my bike, I use a SON 28 hub, Edelux II, and a Spanninga Elips. It lives on the senso setting, and has been completely without bother, or even much thought, since it was installed (and I can say the same for the non-disc SON and Edelux I on the previous bike, pretty much since the Edelux was introduced). As an aside, using the SON rear wiring loom has elimintated all wiring problems, so far.

There's a great deal to be said for a decent lighting system that's just part of the bike, and which needs no looking after.

[gaz]

2. And a red rear flashing and/or steady light.

If you are absolutley determined to meet BS6102/3 set up an ebay search for Cateye TL-AU100BS.

It's a late 20th century LED rear lamp which runs off of a pair of AAs and meets BS6102/3 in steady mode. It also has a flashing mode and incorporates a reflector to BS6102/2*. NOS items come up very occasionally.

*The reflector only meets the standard if it is mounted on a very specific bracket (the same model as it was tested on). Use a variant of the bracket designed for a wider seat post, a narrow seat stay, or even the adjustable bracket that later models were supplied with and the reflector is technically non-compliant.

[PH]

If you are absolutley determined to meet BS6102/3 set up an ebay search for Cateye TL-AU100BS.

That's the one mentioned in the CUK article, though it isn't named, it's only the reflector which is BS6102/3.
It is a bit of a joke, the law changed to allow flashing lights, but the standards were not updated to include that, so there are no BS flashing lights. Which is good and bad, it means you won't have the simplicity of just looking to see if it's marked to meet the standard, but flashing lights that conform to the regulations are legal without a BS marking.

[rjb]

Similar rear light to the cateye crop up in Aldi occasionally.
360 Degree Rear Bike Light for just £4.99. Check it out: https://aldi.co.uk/p/717760565028600
No idea if it complies with the regs.

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[gaz]

That's the one mentioned in the CUK article, though it isn't named, it's only the reflector which is BS6102/3.

The light on the TL-AU100BS complies with BS6102/3 in steady mode. The same light complies with RVLR in flashing mode. The reflector complies with BS6102/2 (subject to the caveat of using an approved bracket).