Fuel prices

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gbnz
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Re: Fuel prices

Post by gbnz »

reohn2 wrote: 7 Aug 2022, 9:13am
Such engines pollute just as much as cars,if they're 2strokes far more,so why shouldn't they attract the same taxes?
[/quote]

And who needs petrol for a lawnmower? Mine works using muscle power, giving a superb, cylinder cut lawn. Rather like moving house, three weeks ago. I'm not allowed to carry furniture on a bus with my Disabled Bus Pass and the washing machine and the like were too big/heavy for the Ortliebs and Rack - so carried it all. Only had one, short, 4 mile ride that week :wink:
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Mick F
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Re: Fuel prices

Post by Mick F »

reohn2 wrote: 7 Aug 2022, 9:13am
Mick F wrote: 7 Aug 2022, 8:53am I'm off out with the petrol brushcutter shortly, and if I have enough energy left and the day doesn't get too warm, I'll get out the petrol lawnmower.

Why should landowners and gardeners pay full whack for the petrol for hand-operated machines?
Is it possible to get a tax rebate?
Somehow, I doubt it.
Such engines pollute just as much as cars,if they're 2strokes far more,so why shouldn't they attract the same taxes?
The prices at the pump have a tax to offset the roads costs. I agree that fuel should be taxed, but domestic fuel be it heating oil or even red diesel isn't taxed like fuel for road use.

My equipment is four-stroke, but if I could get the petrol at a discount ........ like heating oil or red diesel .......... it would be a good thing. Perhaps have the domestic petrol dyed like red diesel is dyed.

I used the brushcutter, and then the lawnmower, and I'm having a cuppa and a shower. I am Mr Sweaty! :lol:
Mick F. Cornwall
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Cugel
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Re: Fuel prices

Post by Cugel »

Mick F wrote: 7 Aug 2022, 8:53am I'm off out with the petrol brushcutter shortly, and if I have enough energy left and the day doesn't get too warm, I'll get out the petrol lawnmower.

Why should landowners and gardeners pay full whack for the petrol for hand-operated machines?
Is it possible to get a tax rebate?
Somehow, I doubt it.
Despite going a bit soft and getting an e-bike, I haven't used a fossil-fool powered gardening tool in many years. Why bother when the hand-applied tools are so much more satisfying to use and even impart a touch of various kinds of fitness? One suspects that there is machine-fetish occuring.

Those machine men in their gardens (and they are so often men) are a blasted anti-social nuisance, with their rackets and stinks! I suspect the same lads are also guilty of the occasional bonty-stinks & fugs, as they burn wet cutting from their machines as well as a sneaky tranche of plastic rubbish they've been saving up. Oh yes they do!

As to those log-burning stoves ..... Well, tut tut tut. :-)

When I'm dictator, fossil fool toys will all be melted down to make those ploughshares, which large hairy-hooved horses will be encouraged to pull about. Think of the pleasures to be had from communing with a horse down some leather straps as you perform an ancient tradition with a big proper tool (the ploughshare or perhaps something even more fangly)! So much greater than making an irritating noise and stink with a probably dangerous little man-toy liable to trim you as much as it does the greenery.

Cugel, fond of large axes and saws (not a fetish, no).
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
reohn2
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Re: Fuel prices

Post by reohn2 »

Mick F wrote: 7 Aug 2022, 10:47am
reohn2 wrote: 7 Aug 2022, 9:13am
Mick F wrote: 7 Aug 2022, 8:53am I'm off out with the petrol brushcutter shortly, and if I have enough energy left and the day doesn't get too warm, I'll get out the petrol lawnmower.

Why should landowners and gardeners pay full whack for the petrol for hand-operated machines?
Is it possible to get a tax rebate?
Somehow, I doubt it.
Such engines pollute just as much as cars,if they're 2strokes far more,so why shouldn't they attract the same taxes?
The prices at the pump have a tax to offset the roads costs. I agree that fuel should be taxed, but domestic fuel be it heating oil or even red diesel isn't taxed like fuel for road use.

My equipment is four-stroke, but if I could get the petrol at a discount ........ like heating oil or red diesel .......... it would be a good thing. Perhaps have the domestic petrol dyed like red diesel is dyed.

I used the brushcutter, and then the lawnmower, and I'm having a cuppa and a shower. I am Mr Sweaty! :lol:
How could you differentiate at the pumps between domestic fuel and road use fuel?
I don't see how you could without everyone all of a sudden having lawnmowers,strimmers,chainsaws,etc needing filling up every day,whether they live in a 12 storey apartment or not :lol:
Anyway how much "domestic" fuel do you use?

PS,I'm going to nickname you the naked thread drift king :D :wink:
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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Biospace
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Re: Fuel prices

Post by Biospace »

Cugel wrote: 7 Aug 2022, 10:51am
Mick F wrote: 7 Aug 2022, 8:53am I'm off out with the petrol brushcutter shortly, and if I have enough energy left and the day doesn't get too warm, I'll get out the petrol lawnmower.

Why should landowners and gardeners pay full whack for the petrol for hand-operated machines?
Is it possible to get a tax rebate?
Somehow, I doubt it.
Despite going a bit soft and getting an e-bike, I haven't used a fossil-fool powered gardening tool in many years. Why bother when the hand-applied tools are so much more satisfying to use and even impart a touch of various kinds of fitness? One suspects that there is machine-fetish occuring.

Those machine men in their gardens (and they are so often men) are a blasted anti-social nuisance, with their rackets and stinks! I suspect the same lads are also guilty of the occasional bonty-stinks & fugs, as they burn wet cutting from their machines as well as a sneaky tranche of plastic rubbish they've been saving up. Oh yes they do!

As to those log-burning stoves ..... Well, tut tut tut. :-)

When I'm dictator, fossil fool toys will all be melted down to make those ploughshares, which large hairy-hooved horses will be encouraged to pull about. Think of the pleasures to be had from communing with a horse down some leather straps as you perform an ancient tradition with a big proper tool (the ploughshare or perhaps something even more fangly)! So much greater than making an irritating noise and stink with a probably dangerous little man-toy liable to trim you as much as it does the greenery.

Cugel, fond of large axes and saws (not a fetish, no).

We'll run and hide in the exhaust smoke where you'll fear to tread! Although I did ditch the old petrol lawnmower because it was so noisy and smelly. Think my primus stoves are the only smelly things left - they cause young people to gather round in amazement that people once 'risked' using such stuff, also that something 70 years old works so well :lol:

The thing is, are we missing the bigger picture? With a steady transition to battery power and almost all ICE vehicles on the road now cleaned up, I reckon there are two issues to which we're as blind as most were to exhaust emissions in the 1970s.

FIrst, that it's still possible to own a car with a huge engine (say, over 3 litres) and be allowed into low emission zones for free. That's crackers, especially when little old ladies have had to trade in their 1 litre Yaris because it was a couple of years too old. Tailpipe emissions aren't limited purely to what governments check. Second, tyre and brake emissions. Directly proportional to a vehicle's mass and torque outputs, these had already overtaken exhaust emissions (particulate) a decade or so ago. This surely must now be rising to or over 70%.

We're breathing in the dust from tyres, it's toxic and not regulated. And until it rains hard enough to wash dust into our water courses, from where it harms the fishy things we eat, tyre dust is re-suspended with each passing vehicle. Cars are growing heavier and more powerful, especially with electric power. Accelerating beyond a given rate is not necessary and can be dangerous in itself, having a vehicle which typically carries one or two people plus 20kg of luggage weigh 1,5 tonnes is madness, let alone the typical 2.5 tonnes of today. Government classes a Tesla as 'zero emission' and owners pay £0 . What a lot of nonsense.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search ... mpliant=on
https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news ... -tailpipes
https://www.opb.org/article/2020/12/04/ ... ho-salmon/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 9720313358
https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news ... sing-tread
Last edited by Biospace on 7 Aug 2022, 2:28pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mick F
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Re: Fuel prices

Post by Mick F »

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Maybe two or two 5ltr cans of unleaded a year?
This year, and last year hasn't been a "growing year" due to lack of rain, so the vegetation hasn't needed hacking back so often, so less fuel consumption.

Worked it out once.
The mower does 11mpg just cutting grass.
Worked it out using the width of cut and the dimensions of the area, and how much fuel per session.

Cheaper to concrete it over, but production of concrete (cement) is a very big polluter.
Mick F. Cornwall
Biospace
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Re: Fuel prices

Post by Biospace »

Pebble wrote: 7 Aug 2022, 12:50am
Yes, all very true, letting engines tick over is pretty disastrous all round, mainly to our health and then the environment. And on modern diesels doing so will probably soon clog up the DPF, (£500 for a forced regen, or even worse a very expensive replacement (£10k + on a wagon)) Not sure what else you can do on some winters mornings, esp if you breath starts to condense and freeze on the inside of the glass.

I mentioned above that engine preheaters which run off the mains are not expensive, for anyone who'd otherwise start up and leave to tick over and warm up on a cold morning they're perfect. Saves fuel, engine (and component) wear, pollution and prolongs the life of engine oil.
Biospace
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Re: Fuel prices

Post by Biospace »

Mick F wrote: 7 Aug 2022, 2:28pm :lol: :lol: :lol:

Maybe two or two 5ltr cans of unleaded a year?
This year, and last year hasn't been a "growing year" due to lack of rain, so the vegetation hasn't needed hacking back so often, so less fuel consumption.

Worked it out once.
The mower does 11mpg just cutting grass.
Worked it out using the width of cut and the dimensions of the area, and how much fuel per session.

Cheaper to concrete it over, but production of concrete (cement) is a very big polluter.

I once dried and stored the season's grass clippings to burn in the woodstove, compressed into solid cylinders with a little (perhaps 15%) added sawdust and a few drops of used cooking oil dregs. A bit more effort but better than tipping it all in a pile to rot.
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Mick F
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Re: Fuel prices

Post by Mick F »

Our mower is a mulcher.
No grass-box.

Stiga.
Not this one, but similar.
https://www.stiga.com/uk/298472048-st2- ... 547-s.html
Mick F. Cornwall
pete75
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Re: Fuel prices

Post by pete75 »

PedallingSquares wrote: 6 Aug 2022, 5:21pm
Biospace wrote: 6 Aug 2022, 1:27pm Are you able to explain your thinking as to how an engine benefits from sitting idling for 10 to 15 minutes on an icy morning?
Yes.
The question is are you able to explain why you think it doesn't :wink:
Yes. Most damage and wear occurs while the engine is cold after starting, The quicker it warms up teh better. An idling engine takes a long tiem to warm up compared to one being driven and used at higher revs.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pete75
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Re: Fuel prices

Post by pete75 »

Cugel wrote: 7 Aug 2022, 10:51am

When I'm dictator, fossil fool toys will all be melted down to make those ploughshares, which large hairy-hooved horses will be encouraged to pull about. Think of the pleasures to be had from communing with a horse down some leather straps as you perform an ancient tradition with a big proper tool (the ploughshare or perhaps something even more fangly)! So much greater than making an irritating noise and stink with a probably dangerous little man-toy liable to trim you as much as it does the greenery.

Cugel, fond of large axes and saws (not a fetish, no).
You're living in fantasy land if you think it's feasible to go back to working the land with horses. Ideally we need to produce more food in the UK not less. A friend's grandfather said when they worked 500 arable acres with horses about a quarter of the land was used to grow feed for them. In other words a return to horses would reduce the amount of land available for growing people food by about 25%. Ploughing would go on all winter - about an acre a day for a good team and the ploughman has to walk around 11 miles to do it. That's in all weathers too.
A lot of heavy clay land can only be worked with modern tractor power so that would all have to go back to animal grazing - another quite large loss of arable.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pete75
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Re: Fuel prices

Post by pete75 »

Pebble wrote: 4 Aug 2022, 3:17pm It is very strange that a large section of the population are quite happy to spend money they don't have to own something they don't need to show off to people they don't know. Everything about car ownership verges on insanity.
Or as Cris Rea put it in Road to Hell 'And all the roads jam up with credit and there's nothing you can do'
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Biospace
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Re: Fuel prices

Post by Biospace »

pete75 wrote: 7 Aug 2022, 11:06pm
Cugel wrote: 7 Aug 2022, 10:51am

When I'm dictator, fossil fool toys will all be melted down to make those ploughshares, which large hairy-hooved horses will be encouraged to pull about. Think of the pleasures to be had from communing with a horse down some leather straps as you perform an ancient tradition with a big proper tool (the ploughshare or perhaps something even more fangly)! So much greater than making an irritating noise and stink with a probably dangerous little man-toy liable to trim you as much as it does the greenery.

Cugel, fond of large axes and saws (not a fetish, no).
You're living in fantasy land if you think it's feasible to go back to working the land with horses. Ideally we need to produce more food in the UK not less. A friend's grandfather said when they worked 500 arable acres with horses about a quarter of the land was used to grow feed for them. In other words a return to horses would reduce the amount of land available for growing people food by about 25%. Ploughing would go on all winter - about an acre a day for a good team and the ploughman has to walk around 11 miles to do it. That's in all weathers too.
A lot of heavy clay land can only be worked with modern tractor power so that would all have to go back to animal grazing - another quite large loss of arable.

A farmer friend has noticed that a lot of time spent by a tractor isn't doing hard work, rather plodding about a yard, fetching and carrying, lifting and stacking, burning diesel in an engine being used to less than a tenth of its potential. He's convinced a horse would be a better investment and is seriously considering the idea. I suggested a typical 1960s tractor would make even more sense, while they're still affordable.

pete75, you're assuming without questioning that ploughing is somehow a necessity to grow crops. I remember reading a book written by a Japanese farmer at least 20 years ago, detailing how his crops grew stronger and more profitably when sown in un-ploughed land. I've since learnt there's the possibility that ploughing too deep and too frequently is not good for the health of soil - excessive exposure to UV light being one of the theories.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40166313
pete75
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Re: Fuel prices

Post by pete75 »

6.5_lives_left wrote: 6 Aug 2022, 1:09am
pete75 wrote: 3 Aug 2022, 10:36pm But it will be mainly drivers who are paying that subsidy through taxation. People who drive pay the bulk of UK tax. It's the group of people who don't drive, mainly the poor and elderly, who are being subsidised by the tax drivers pay. Remember motorists don't just pay fuel duties/tax, they pay a hell of a lot of income and others taxes as well.

Someone I know well pays over £100,000 per annum income tax, never mind VAT, fuel taxes, VED etc. Please tell me how her driving is being subsidised by anyone else. Before I retired I was on a modest salary but was still stopped almost £2000 in income tax and NI each month - I doubt my motoring was being susbsidised by others either.
My emphasis

This page on the office for national statistics website contains a figure (figure 1) showing the weekly earnings of a full time employee on median salary, between years 2011 to 2021. You claim that your stoppages were circa £2k. A full time worker on median salary in 2021 has to work about three weeks to earn what you paid in stoppages each month. I wouldn't call your salary modest, I would say it was somewhat fat when compared against median salary.

How many years does your median salary worker have to work to pay your acquaintance's annual income tax bill?
What you've got to realise is that the median UK salary is low. You seem to be critical of people earning more than it though. It's employers who are to blame for those wages not other employees who earn what you describe as a fat income. If the buggers had cut my wages do you really think they'd have used the money to pay someone else more rather than to increase profits.
What's your ambition - low wages economy for all?

I described my former salary as modest because it wasn't particularly high and it wasn't particularly low. Suppose I could have earnt more if I'd been ambitious but wasn't and stuck in the same job for thirty years. Worked to live, not lived to work.

What is the relevance of your final question - you have access to the wage stats so work it out for yourself.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pete75
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Re: Fuel prices

Post by pete75 »

Biospace wrote: 7 Aug 2022, 11:32pm
pete75 wrote: 7 Aug 2022, 11:06pm
Cugel wrote: 7 Aug 2022, 10:51am

When I'm dictator, fossil fool toys will all be melted down to make those ploughshares, which large hairy-hooved horses will be encouraged to pull about. Think of the pleasures to be had from communing with a horse down some leather straps as you perform an ancient tradition with a big proper tool (the ploughshare or perhaps something even more fangly)! So much greater than making an irritating noise and stink with a probably dangerous little man-toy liable to trim you as much as it does the greenery.

Cugel, fond of large axes and saws (not a fetish, no).
You're living in fantasy land if you think it's feasible to go back to working the land with horses. Ideally we need to produce more food in the UK not less. A friend's grandfather said when they worked 500 arable acres with horses about a quarter of the land was used to grow feed for them. In other words a return to horses would reduce the amount of land available for growing people food by about 25%. Ploughing would go on all winter - about an acre a day for a good team and the ploughman has to walk around 11 miles to do it. That's in all weathers too.
A lot of heavy clay land can only be worked with modern tractor power so that would all have to go back to animal grazing - another quite large loss of arable.

A farmer friend has noticed that a lot of time spent by a tractor isn't doing hard work, rather plodding about a yard, fetching and carrying, lifting and stacking, burning diesel in an engine being used to less than a tenth of its potential. He's convinced a horse would be a better investment and is seriously considering the idea. I suggested a typical 1960s tractor would make even more sense, while they're still affordable.

pete75, you're assuming without questioning that ploughing is somehow a necessity to grow crops. I remember reading a book written by a Japanese farmer at least 20 years ago, detailing how his crops grew stronger and more profitably when sown in un-ploughed land. I've since learnt there's the possibility that ploughing too deep and too frequently is not good for the health of soil - excessive exposure to UV light being one of the theories.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40166313
If you're ploughing with horses then you can't plough very deep. No till farming requires more herbicides and more fertilisers than conventional farming.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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