Why do they do it?

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mjr
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Re: Why do they do it?

Post by mjr »

thirdcrank wrote: 10 Aug 2022, 11:44am I can only say that this subject is so much wider than "CYCLISTS DISMOUNT" signs even though there is one here. And FWIW, if, as I believe, riding on the footway in the location covered in this thread is illegal, then the dismount advice here seems sound.
Perhaps, but my experiences mean I don't share your faith that the TTRO or WTRO covered cycling or that cyclists were even considered when drafting the Order, as required by the relevant laws.
More widely, if there is an emergency - and a reference has been made to fire-fighting - then organising emergency diversions can be very difficult, especially out-of-hours when highways departments tend to be shut. I've often faced this situation. And that was in the days when highways departments direct works were much bigger than today. I presume that signs sometimes remaining out longer than needed is the result of poor follow-up by highway authorities.
Yes, I have much more sympathy for emergency diversions for many reasons (not least that they must work quickly and the information emergency services get from highways authorities about cycling is often out of date or incorrect), but I've also found that the emergency services generally have much more sympathy for cyclists than county council highways departments and the officers on the barriers usually allow riders through if asked and it is safe to do so, rather than expecting them to follow diversions onto motorways or quasimotorways where cycling is technically legal but rare and deeply unpleasant.

It would be nice if they'd take the signs with them when they leave, but I expect they are sometimes called to the next emergency before they can clean up or even note reliably how many signs were deployed. I suspect Highways Area Officers used to collect abandoned signs on their rounds and return them, but they don't seem to have time for thorough rounds any more.
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thirdcrank
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Re: Why do they do it?

Post by thirdcrank »

Since the NRSWA (linked higher up) replaced the Public Utilities and Streetworks Act (PUSWA) I believe there's been a reduction in the involvement of the direct works people employed by local authorities. Privatisation. eg BITD, Bradford Council used to have somewhere called Shearbridge. If anything needed sorting out, Shearbridge was the place to call 24/7. Then it was cut back. Going back a bit further, I believe that in the last hour of the Saturday night shift on Sunday morning City of Bradford Police combed the city for faulty signs, street furniture etc and reported it all to .... Shearbridge. In addition to any reports at other time. That stopped too.

I believe that in cases like the one which started this thread the statutory undertakers organise it, making prolific use of specialist sub-contractors, and apply to the traffic authority for the TTRO. The traffic authority has limited resources to argue.
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Paulatic
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Re: Why do they do it?

Post by Paulatic »

cycle tramp wrote: 10 Aug 2022, 9:38am
Paulatic wrote: 10 Aug 2022, 6:55am
cycle tramp wrote: 9 Aug 2022, 11:29pm [

Then there's the 1988 roads traffic act about not obeying temporary signs erected by road workers.. seem to remember that one carries a 250 pound fine last time I looked
Sounds like I’ve just blown £2000 in the last week alone.
I passed this sign last week at home
78872C26-6641-400B-85D9-A9E46DC0FC3E.jpeg
That sign was put there the hot Tuesday in July while fire crews tackled a forestry fire.
My last three days here in N Yorks I’ve gone through seven similar signs where the road wasn’t closed.
The signs IMV are worthless.
That's nice for you.... doesn't change anything though, does it?
The sign to which Squeaker referred was placed there following a complaint by a resident, according to Squeaker felt threatened and was verbally abused.
So far very few on this thread (other than myself) have expressed any remorse over the situation, which given the level of some posts is disappointing.
And as noted by another contributor to this thread, if we replaced the word cyclist with motorist and pedestrians with cyclist we'd have a much similar thread to the daily mail.
Throughout this thread there has been an under current of emotion which reads 'how dare someone tell me where I can and where I can't cycle'. Its like suddenly it's a personal affront to allow pedestrians to actually claim a piece of footway for themselves, where all they want to do is walk safely to and from a to b.
Given this level of self righteousness, do we really wonder why we have a hard time in the press?
Are you really telling me that you’re such a law abiding person that every red rectangular sign Ive passed in the last week you would obey?
You would also comply to the OP sign even if there was no pedestrian on that path complete with dropped kerb. While I certainly would cycle down it I would never compromise the safety of any pedestrian on it. I’d more than likely stop as it maybe isn’t wide enough to get off and walk beside.
There seems to be a huge legal argument going on here I’ve realised I don’t have long enough to live to worry about. All I’d like is for common sense to prevail and just get on with life but then you’ll always find someone who waves a rule book at you.
This afternoon 4 cyclists were stopped at the end of a lane with road closed signs. I told them yesterday I ignored the sign at the other end and got through as did two others coming toward me. There’s a digger putting a trench in at the side of the lane. Armed with this information they still turned and went in search of an alternative. I can’t comprehend why anyone would do that but you obviously can. Life’s a mystery :D
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thirdcrank
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Re: Why do they do it?

Post by thirdcrank »

Gee wrote: 5 Aug 2022, 6:18pm I’d have just cycled on regardless. I might have slowed down a bit if there were a people about.

That sign only offers ‘advice’ anyway.

Seems a bit pedantic to even think of getting off walking 10 paces and getting on again. The pedestrian’s not by any chance called Victor Meldrew is he. I don’t think I’d have abused him, I might have laughed a bit but I’d have pretty much ignored him/her.

Paulatic wrote: 10 Aug 2022, 4:07pm
cycle tramp wrote: 10 Aug 2022, 9:38am
Paulatic wrote: 10 Aug 2022, 6:55am
Sounds like I’ve just blown £2000 in the last week alone.
I passed this sign last week at home
78872C26-6641-400B-85D9-A9E46DC0FC3E.jpeg
That sign was put there the hot Tuesday in July while fire crews tackled a forestry fire.
My last three days here in N Yorks I’ve gone through seven similar signs where the road wasn’t closed.
The signs IMV are worthless.
That's nice for you.... doesn't change anything though, does it?
The sign to which Squeaker referred was placed there following a complaint by a resident, according to Squeaker felt threatened and was verbally abused.
So far very few on this thread (other than myself) have expressed any remorse over the situation, which given the level of some posts is disappointing.
And as noted by another contributor to this thread, if we replaced the word cyclist with motorist and pedestrians with cyclist we'd have a much similar thread to the daily mail.
Throughout this thread there has been an under current of emotion which reads 'how dare someone tell me where I can and where I can't cycle'. Its like suddenly it's a personal affront to allow pedestrians to actually claim a piece of footway for themselves, where all they want to do is walk safely to and from a to b.
Given this level of self righteousness, do we really wonder why we have a hard time in the press?
Are you really telling me that you’re such a law abiding person that every red rectangular sign Ive passed in the last week you would obey?
You would also comply to the OP sign even if there was no pedestrian on that path complete with dropped kerb. While I certainly would cycle down it I would never compromise the safety of any pedestrian on it. I’d more than likely stop as it maybe isn’t wide enough to get off and walk beside.
There seems to be a huge legal argument going on here I’ve realised I don’t have long enough to live to worry about. All I’d like is for common sense to prevail and just get on with life but then you’ll always find someone who waves a rule book at you.
This afternoon 4 cyclists were stopped at the end of a lane with road closed signs. I told them yesterday I ignored the sign at the other end and got through as did two others coming toward me. There’s a digger putting a trench in at the side of the lane. Armed with this information they still turned and went in search of an alternative. I can’t comprehend why anyone would do that but you obviously can. Life’s a mystery :D (My bold)
Hands up everybody who would accept this sort of self-serving logic from a driver accused of close-passing. Ah! But that's different.

(Sorry for the legthy quoting but I was too lazy to mess with the formating)
cycle tramp
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Re: Why do they do it?

Post by cycle tramp »

Paulatic wrote: 10 Aug 2022, 4:07pm
cycle tramp wrote: 10 Aug 2022, 9:38am
Paulatic wrote: 10 Aug 2022, 6:55am
Sounds like I’ve just blown £2000 in the last week alone.
I passed this sign last week at home
78872C26-6641-400B-85D9-A9E46DC0FC3E.jpeg
That sign was put there the hot Tuesday in July while fire crews tackled a forestry fire.
My last three days here in N Yorks I’ve gone through seven similar signs where the road wasn’t closed.
The signs IMV are worthless.
That's nice for you.... doesn't change anything though, does it?
Are you really telling me that you’re such a law abiding person that every red rectangular sign Ive passed in the last week you would obey?
You would also comply to the OP sign even if there was no pedestrian on that path complete with dropped kerb. While I certainly would cycle down it I would never compromise the safety of any pedestrian on it. I’d more than likely stop as it maybe isn’t wide enough to get off and walk beside.
There seems to be a huge legal argument going on here I’ve realised I don’t have long enough to live to worry about. All I’d like is for common sense to prevail and just get on with life but then you’ll always find someone who waves a rule book at you.
In answer to your question;
When I was 18 through my own inattention I crashed my motorcycle into the front of a transit delivery van, and punched a large hole in my spleen. I also died. It was actually quiet pieceful as my brain neurons shut themselves down. Luckily it was only for a few seconds, and the paramedics made me better. Never under estimate just how badly you can seriously &*%$ up every thing good in your life, or other people's live with a moment's inattention...

..road closed signs. Are a pain in the bum. Usually placed at the last t-junction, but there's no information as to why, or where (come on guys, we have qr codes we can use now). Treat with caution. It may be that your destination which past the road closed sign is before the actual closure, it may be that around the next corner is a massive steel fence cutting off any further forward motion. It could be a flood, or part of the road has fallen into a sink hole. It might be that it's very windy today, the road goes through a wood and the landowner has failed to carry out his legal checks to ensure the trees won't loose any major branches. It could a fallen tree. It could be that it's a drought, and the road has been closed to stop cars from using that road and throwing their cigarettes out into the dry grass. It could be that works finished 4 weeks ago and the signs haven't been collected. It could be that it's a coast road and there's been a landslip, Who knows? Planned road closures used to be publicly displayed on www.roadworks.org but I think they've changed the site. If you are doing a long ride, always worth checking. If I am honest I treat 'road closed signs' as information signs, proceed with caution, especially in extreme weather and around blind bends and use your imagination as to try and work out why they may have closed the road.

'No vehicles past this point' yeah, definitely do not pass. Gas leaks, chemical spills, fire arms/crime incidents (yes, there has been one when roads were closed) unexploded bombs.
There could be some serious $#!÷ beyond that sign which you don't want cluttering your life.

Road work signs which ask you to 'get off and push your bike'. Yeah, I do that. Whilst it may look like they've only dug up the road, they may have dropped in a trench or a hole across the pavement and covered it with a big sheet of slippery (but weight bearing) steel, or the trench might be left unfinished and an inch lower than the footway surface or even worse (and occasionally it happens) the trench has been dug, its not filled in but the strong plastic plate that the workman have placed over the top has become unsecured and has moved leaving the 3 foot deep trench open...
Last edited by cycle tramp on 10 Aug 2022, 8:12pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Paulatic
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Re: Why do they do it?

Post by Paulatic »

I can handle a close pass from a vehicle providing I’m aware they are there and the speed differential isn’t much. Possibly upto a 10 mph difference. As indeed as a pedestrian I’m not disturbed by a cyclist coming close if they are also at walking speed or a little above.
In both instances it’s speed that causes alarm and problems.
Thinking about yesterday’s ride I was on a few very narrow lanes with few vehicles. 2 out of three oncoming cars stopped to let me past. The others slowed apart from one. No prizes for guessing it was a huge black Range Rover.
Following traffic had to wait until I found a gateway to let them pass.
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MikeF
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Re: Why do they do it?

Post by MikeF »

Throughout this thread I notice the word "road" being used incorrectly. "Road" is the whole width of the route. It consists of a carriageway usually, and sometimes a footway. I think in the OP's case the wording should be "carriageway closed".
"Road closed" means the footway or any pedestrian access is closed as well.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master.
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squeaker
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Re: Why do they do it?

Post by squeaker »

MikeF wrote: 13 Aug 2022, 10:51pm Throughout this thread I notice the word "road" being used incorrectly. "Road" is the whole width of the route. It consists of a carriageway usually, and sometimes a footway. I think in the OP's case the wording should be "carriageway closed".
"Road closed" means the footway or any pedestrian access is closed as well.
Problem is that 'Road Closed Ahead' is what the warning signs say :roll: Probably 'cos larger writing / smaller signs can be used with 'Road' as opposed to 'Carriageway' :wink:
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Re: Why do they do it?

Post by MikeF »

squeaker wrote: 14 Aug 2022, 9:00am
MikeF wrote: 13 Aug 2022, 10:51pm Throughout this thread I notice the word "road" being used incorrectly. "Road" is the whole width of the route. It consists of a carriageway usually, and sometimes a footway. I think in the OP's case the wording should be "carriageway closed".
"Road closed" means the footway or any pedestrian access is closed as well.
Problem is that 'Road Closed Ahead' is what the warning signs say :roll: Probably 'cos larger writing / smaller signs can be used with 'Road' as opposed to 'Carriageway' :wink:
Yes very probably and also, in general, highways staff and contractors who often erect the signs are not very "clued up" on definitions and technicalities that are important.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master.
I don't peddle bikes.
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