Why do they do it?

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Why do they do it?

Post by thirdcrank »

tim-b wrote: 6 Aug 2022, 7:52am Hi
Maudlin Lane, Bramber?
That's subject to a road closure which has a public notice available online. If it's subject to a closure then that section is no longer a road, including the foopath, because the closure stretches from building line to building line
Highway Act 1835 says, "If any person shall wilfully ride upon any footpath or causeway by the side of any road..." doesn't apply because it's legally not a road
Common sense should apply and ride/walk as you would on a shared path. If pedestrians are around then wait/walk because they are more vulnerable in the general hierarchy
It would be helpful if you could link to to the online road closure notice so we can read what it says

Re the bit I've highlighted, is there a source for that?
tim-b
Posts: 2091
Joined: 10 Oct 2009, 8:20am

Re: Why do they do it?

Post by tim-b »

Hi
It would be helpful if you could link to to the online road closure notice so we can read what it says
I couldn't "get at" a direct link. Indirect link is here https://one.network/?tm=123853288 ...scroll to Traffic Order Documents>Public Notice
Re the bit I've highlighted, is there a source for that?
Definition of a road (RTA 1988). The purpose of the closure order is to exclude the public. It's bodged to give the public a route but that doesn't alter the fact that the carriageway/road is closed
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~
cycle tramp
Posts: 3532
Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: Why do they do it?

Post by cycle tramp »

tim-b wrote: 6 Aug 2022, 7:52am Hi
Maudlin Lane, Bramber?
That's subject to a road closure which has a public notice available online. If it's subject to a closure then that section is no longer a road, including the foopath, because the closure stretches from building line to building line
Highway Act 1835 says, "If any person shall wilfully ride upon any footpath or causeway by the side of any road..." doesn't apply because it's legally not a road
Both the highway code and the later revisions to the highway act, clearly state that you should not ride on the footway which has been set aside for pedestrians.
In both the highway code and the later acts themselves, no other clauses have been listed as when you can ride on the footway. As a result this is a blanket statement and no other factors can be taken into consideration..

..closing the road for repairs does not legally change the status of the road. It is a road before and after the works, and continues to remain a road even if it is closed to vehicles (a road does not in law cease to be a road, just because work is being carried out to it). When the law talks about closing the road, the correct term is 'closing the road to traffic' meaning traffic is not permitted along that stretch of road. It does not affect the legal existence of that road, it just means you can't use it.

For the road to actually stop existing takes the local authority a large amount of paperwork as well as public consultation and may result in that parcel of land (where the road had existed) being placed into private ownership. As this has not happened in this case, it is still a road.

If we accept that the whole road and footway is closed by the order, but the footway has been left open under the discretion of the road crew, then you should also not cycle on that footway as the sign which has been placed there by the road team incidicate. The works team by licence of the road closure have full rights to ask anyone not to use that stretch of road, or to give instruction as to how to pass the works safely.
Motorhead: god was never on your sidehttps://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=m ... +your+side
Nearholmer
Posts: 3930
Joined: 26 Mar 2022, 7:13am

Re: Why do they do it?

Post by Nearholmer »

Getting back to the question posed in the thread title: because they/we are human beings, not angels or robots, and hence prey to moments of lapse, wilful selfishness, thoughtlessness, distraction, arrogance, calculated risk taking, impatience etc.

Human beings riding bikes are no different from human beings driving cars, or indeed human beings doing anything else, in that respect; the doctrine of “people on bikes can do no wrong” that begins to break surface in this thread in places is pure, unadulterated tosh.

IMO, all the debate about the form of sign etc is irrelevant : the sign may or may not be non-compliant with guidance/law, but it’s meaning is plain enough, as is the fact that the part of the Highway that remains open is a footway, and nothing else.

Have I ever done similar? Yes, in fact I just realised I did yesterday, where there is roadworks that involves three-way light control at a junction between two lanes, very short ‘let through’ durations, and prolonged waits. I nipped onto the vestigial pavement to dodge round it. I could see the pavement was clear throughout, but I realised afterwards that someone coming out of a garden gate from behind a high hedge could have appeared in front of me with no time for either of us to react, despite me going super-slowly, so I both broke the law and took unacceptable risk in the process. Sin? Impatience.
Last edited by Nearholmer on 6 Aug 2022, 9:43am, edited 2 times in total.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Why do they do it?

Post by thirdcrank »

tim-b wrote: 6 Aug 2022, 8:23am Hi
It would be helpful if you could link to to the online road closure notice so we can read what it says
I couldn't "get at" a direct link. Indirect link is here https://one.network/?tm=123853288 ...scroll to Traffic Order Documents>Public Notice
Re the bit I've highlighted, is there a source for that?
Definition of a road (RTA 1988). The purpose of the closure order is to exclude the public. It's bodged to give the public a route but that doesn't alter the fact that the carriageway/road is closed
Thanks for that. I'll try to research what the order says. As a general point, if this it a temporary traffic order - as posted by squeaker - then the usual enabling legislation is here
14 Temporary prohibition or restriction on roads.

(1)If the traffic authority for a road are satisfied that traffic on the road should be restricted or prohibited—

(a) because works are being or are proposed to be executed on or near the road; or
(b) because of the likelihood of danger to the public, or of serious damage to the road, which is not attributable to such works; or
(c) for the purpose of enabling the duty imposed by section 89(1)(a) or (2) of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 (litter clearing and cleaning) to be discharged,the authority may by order restrict or prohibit temporarily the use of that road, or of any part of it, by vehicles, or vehicles of any class, or by pedestrians, to such extent and subject to such conditions or exceptions as they may consider necessary.

(continues)
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/14

That suggests to me that if the the traffic authority "prohibit temporarily the use of that road" then it is still a road. If it ceased to be a road, then the authority's power to restrict its use would cease with it. I don't claim that my common sense explanation is necessarily correct. English law isn't a fountain of common sense, but I'll stick with my common sense till somebody comes up with a legal authority saying it's wrong.

Why'll I'm posting, then if there are developments which permanently remove a road, then I believe that the Highways Act offence would no longer apply to any remaining footpath.
=========================================================
PS I've now followed your link and all I can find is the public notice saying that the temporary traffic order has been made and who to ring for more info. IMO say there is an order in force doesn't take us any nearer knowing what it says. (I presume squeaker as a paper copy.)
Last edited by thirdcrank on 6 Aug 2022, 9:30am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
squeaker
Posts: 4112
Joined: 12 Jan 2007, 11:43pm
Location: Sussex

Re: Why do they do it?

Post by squeaker »

mjr wrote: 5 Aug 2022, 8:21pm
squeaker wrote: 5 Aug 2022, 3:07pm In juxtaposition, here's another sign associated with the same roadworks, also widely ignored :roll:
20220805_112703~2.jpg
It doesn't look like that one is being used correctly either, or is there some reason we can't see why motorists shouldn't use the right-hand half to overtake, when clear of oncoming traffic?
Clays Hill, Bramber: ~5.2m between kerb and grass verge / hedge so 'rather narrow' - HGVs and buses have to slow down to pass each other... No reason at all not to overtake using the opposing carriageway. I suspect someone in the streetworks team got a bit carried away :roll:
"42"
tim-b
Posts: 2091
Joined: 10 Oct 2009, 8:20am

Re: Why do they do it?

Post by tim-b »

..closing the road for repairs does not legally change the status of the road. It is a road before and after the works, and continues to remain a road even if it is closed to vehicles (a road does not in law cease to be a road, just because work is being carried out to it). When the law talks about closing the road, the correct term is 'closing the road to traffic' meaning traffic is not permitted along that stretch of road. It does not affect the legal existence of that road, it just means you can't use it.
The whole road isn't closed, that section of carriageway/road is temporarily closed (EDIT I can't find the Bramber order but it is possible to close the road for 50m only, or whatever is necessary). The carriageway isn't accessible to the public (closure order plus fencing) and so the Highways Act doesn't apply to that stretch of path
Regardless, cyclists should be using common sense and courtesy
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~
cycle tramp
Posts: 3532
Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: Why do they do it?

Post by cycle tramp »

tim-b wrote: 6 Aug 2022, 11:20am
..closing the road for repairs does not legally change the status of the road. It is a road before and after the works, and continues to remain a road even if it is closed to vehicles (a road does not in law cease to be a road, just because work is being carried out to it). When the law talks about closing the road, the correct term is 'closing the road to traffic' meaning traffic is not permitted along that stretch of road. It does not affect the legal existence of that road, it just means you can't use it.
The whole road isn't closed, that section of carriageway/road is temporarily closed (EDIT I can't find the Bramber order but it is possible to close the road for 50m only, or whatever is necessary). The carriageway isn't accessible to the public (closure order plus fencing) and so the Highways Act doesn't apply to that stretch of path
Regardless, cyclists should be using common sense and courtesy
Whether or not the public have access to the road is immaterial. The road exists as a right of way, as evidenced by a raft of documentation held by the local authority - however in this instance the road happens to be closed to traffic.
There is no legalisation within the road closures acts which stops the highway act from being applied - i am basing this term of reference on my training and 5 years working with a local authority answering enquiries from the public, assisting the police and supporting highways engineers.
At this point you are going to have to tell me what your basing your argument on and perhaps even quote me the relevant acts because I'm not finding them either on the Internet or in my notes.
Last edited by cycle tramp on 6 Aug 2022, 12:08pm, edited 1 time in total.
Motorhead: god was never on your sidehttps://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=m ... +your+side
cycle tramp
Posts: 3532
Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: Why do they do it?

Post by cycle tramp »

Having quickly read the highways acts again, there is nothing in them that I can find which states 'this act is only applicable to sections of highways which are open to the public and should not be applied to sections of the highway that are closed to traffic'... what is your source of information which advises that the highways acts don't apply to roads which are closed to traffic?

I would be very interested in reading them because the highways acts also mention funding, responsibility and up keep of the highways. I mean if suddenly we found that the highways acts didn't apply because they were closed to traffic does that mean the Council isn't responsible for them during that time both financially and legally? Suddenly all the councils in England and Wales might be waiting for this one piece of law that has escaped my training and that of the highway engineers that I supported :D
Motorhead: god was never on your sidehttps://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=m ... +your+side
User avatar
squeaker
Posts: 4112
Joined: 12 Jan 2007, 11:43pm
Location: Sussex

Re: Why do they do it?

Post by squeaker »

thirdcrank wrote: 6 Aug 2022, 8:07am It would be helpful if you could link to to the online road closure notice so we can read what it says
The public notice
NoticeOfClosure.jpg
And from the OneNetwork, which says the the Footway remains open
OneNotice.jpg
HTH
"42"
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Why do they do it?

Post by thirdcrank »

squeaker

Thanks for that although I already got that far with tim b's link.

I was assuming that in your official capacity you might be on the circulation list for a paper copy of the temporary order and I was wondering if it said anything about pedal cycles. It's a couple of decades since I got this sort of thing automatically for Leeds and I know that traffic orders tend to be very wordy.

As a general point, unless an order is made in response to an emergency like a sinkhole opening up, then notices will be posted locally of the type in your post - nearby lampposts and local newspapers. Anybody who's really bothered can then get better info from the horse's mouth.

Again speaking generally, I think we do well to try to make a difference between what I'd call a moral approach, by which I mean drawing attention to the two-faced approach of the authorities over something like this; and a letter-of-the-law learned friend analysis.
cycle tramp
Posts: 3532
Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: Why do they do it?

Post by cycle tramp »

Additional, I can't find it at the moment but I'm damn sure that one of the highways acts mentions standards which should be met when the road is repaired, after it's being dug up. Which is a shame because that would prove once and for all that the highways acts exist and are enforceable whether there is public access or otherwise.
Motorhead: god was never on your sidehttps://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=m ... +your+side
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Why do they do it?

Post by thirdcrank »

There's a lot of verbiage in the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991, which effectively privatised a lot of this

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/22/contents

I doubt if it contains anything about pavement cycling
cycle tramp
Posts: 3532
Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: Why do they do it?

Post by cycle tramp »

Found it! Section 171 of the 1980 highways act gives the local authority the control of who digs up the road, how they do it and how they put it all back again.
Therefore the highways acts cannot be suspended when a road is closed to traffic, for works, as the local authority would, by default , lose these rights.

Thank you for your time and patience in this matter :D
Motorhead: god was never on your sidehttps://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=m ... +your+side
User avatar
squeaker
Posts: 4112
Joined: 12 Jan 2007, 11:43pm
Location: Sussex

Re: Why do they do it?

Post by squeaker »

thirdcrank wrote: 6 Aug 2022, 12:42pm squeaker

Thanks for that although I already got that far with tim b's link.

I was assuming that in your official capacity you might be on the circulation list for a paper copy of the temporary order and I was wondering if it said anything about pedal cycles.
All the Parish got was the public notice I posted earlier, so no extra detail.

The interesting bit will come when they finally get the hole next to the footway done and dusted, and move south where there's no footway. Last time it took a bit of effort to persuade them that a gap next to the hedge for NMUs to get past would be helpful :roll:
Feb2020.jpg
(That may look like a footway on the right, but it's someone's front garden...)
Last edited by squeaker on 6 Aug 2022, 3:08pm, edited 3 times in total.
"42"
Post Reply