Why are they arguing about policies?

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ChrisF
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Why are they arguing about policies?

Post by ChrisF »

Why are Sunak and Truss arguing about tax cuts and suchlike? The Tory Party leadership race should surely be about who can best lead the party - i.e. who has the best leadership skills, to make existing policies actually happen - not about which policies to go for. Policies should be decided upon during a general election - that's what they're for, aren't they?
Chris F, Cornwall
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Cugel
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Re: Why are they arguing about policies?

Post by Cugel »

ChrisF wrote: 6 Aug 2022, 9:15pm Why are Sunak and Truss arguing about tax cuts and suchlike? The Tory Party leadership race should surely be about who can best lead the party - i.e. who has the best leadership skills, to make existing policies actually happen - not about which policies to go for. Policies should be decided upon during a general election - that's what they're for, aren't they?
Ye cannae call them noises they're making policies. They're strokes and exciters of the loony-beliefs held by the Tory Party Merkins who will vote one of them in or out as Prime Monsterer.

I just wish there was a Tory-Catcher, like that Child-Catcher in the filum. They could easily be attracted into the cage-van with a bundle of ten pound notes in a brown envelope. "Here, little Tory - a bag of money for you to spend as you like on gawdy baubles and awful clothes ......". CLANG!

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
Carlton green
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Re: Why are they arguing about policies?

Post by Carlton green »

ChrisF wrote: 6 Aug 2022, 9:15pm Why are Sunak and Truss arguing about tax cuts and suchlike? The Tory Party leadership race should surely be about who can best lead the party - i.e. who has the best leadership skills, to make existing policies actually happen - not about which policies to go for. Policies should be decided upon during a general election - that's what they're for, aren't they?
Quite. Every political party deviates on its manifesto because events intervene, time is limited and what’s intended may be too difficult or painful to implement. Manifestos also set a general direction of what a party intends and if made too detailed they become incomprehensible to the electorate and bind the winner to policies that turn out to be flawed, etc., a bit of wiggle room is needed. On the other hand the current beauty parade has no business to be making up policy to suit the aspirations of individual leadership candidates - it should indeed be about leadership and the existing manifesto on which the Government was elected - and thank you for making that point.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
francovendee
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Re: Why are they arguing about policies?

Post by francovendee »

This isn't a general election. The two candidates are trying to find something that appeals to the 200000 Tory members, nothing to do with what's best for the country.
Nearholmer
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Re: Why are they arguing about policies?

Post by Nearholmer »

Yes, this is all about bribing just enough party members in order to win, using money stolen from our children, who will be the ones who have to “service the national debt” long term.

What they should be doing is giving no “across the board” tax cuts, because that simply fuels inflation and stores-up more trouble, and preparing a really solid set of support measures for those who will be hardest hit by fuel and food prices rises this coming winter. That isn’t some mad leftie idea, it’s what Lord Clarke, who was a Tory himself last time I checked, plus every balanced, as opposed to dogma-driven, economist is saying.
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Cugel
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Re: Why are they arguing about policies?

Post by Cugel »

Nearholmer wrote: 7 Aug 2022, 9:14am Yes, this is all about bribing just enough party members in order to win, using money stolen from our children, who will be the ones who have to “service the national debt” long term.

What they should be doing is giving no “across the board” tax cuts, because that simply fuels inflation and stores-up more trouble, and preparing a really solid set of support measures for those who will be hardest hit by fuel and food prices rises this coming winter. That isn’t some mad leftie idea, it’s what Lord Clarke, who was a Tory himself last time I checked, plus every balanced, as opposed to dogma-driven, economist is saying.
Personally I'm coming 'round to The Levellers' point of view. But we know what happened to them!

There is also The Diggers alternative but one feels this might soon lead to guillotines in every town square! However, there is some cogency in the notion that "property is theft". On the other hand, common ownership is rather difficult to implement successfully and might even be an oxymoron.

***********
Perhaps the answer is to study and practice more of the various modes of self-sufficiency, intersecting with the more social modes of barter and communitarianism? In a surprising number of British domains and locations, such things are still practiced quite successfully albeit at a low level .... yet despite the behemoth of the neoliberal hegemony.

Is there a political party that seeks to promote such modes? Of course not! They're all infested with notions of power hierarchies, so-called "economics" and "growth". Ideological claptrap abounds, often composed and promulgated by the worst possible candidates and personalities for the operation of political ends that are supposedly for the benefit of the people composing and sustaining the polity. Political parties are now the armatures of tiny cliques, cabals and syndicates of extremely greedy people often bordering on the psychopathic and/or sociopathic.

******************

What's the opposite of "economic growth"? Many interweb answers will use notions such as "degeneration" and similar negative concepts rather than words cleaving to "sustainable". What word would anyone here use to describe a polity operating to sustain not just its peoples but the environment in which they live and on which they depend? And their culture (all of it)?

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
Nearholmer
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Re: Why are they arguing about policies?

Post by Nearholmer »

The word missing from all discourse on economics, and hence politics, is “enough”.
Jdsk
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Re: Why are they arguing about policies?

Post by Jdsk »

Carlton green wrote: 7 Aug 2022, 7:09am
ChrisF wrote: 6 Aug 2022, 9:15pm Why are Sunak and Truss arguing about tax cuts and suchlike? The Tory Party leadership race should surely be about who can best lead the party - i.e. who has the best leadership skills, to make existing policies actually happen - not about which policies to go for. Policies should be decided upon during a general election - that's what they're for, aren't they?
Quite. Every political party deviates on its manifesto because events intervene, time is limited and what’s intended may be too difficult or painful to implement. Manifestos also set a general direction of what a party intends and if made too detailed they become incomprehensible to the electorate and bind the winner to policies that turn out to be flawed, etc., a bit of wiggle room is needed. On the other hand the current beauty parade has no business to be making up policy to suit the aspirations of individual leadership candidates - it should indeed be about leadership and the existing manifesto on which the Government was elected - and thank you for making that point.
Agreed x2.

And apart from that principle it's leading to very bad policy making.

Jonathan
mumbojumbo
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Re: Why are they arguing about policies?

Post by mumbojumbo »

[quoteWhy are Sunak and Truss arguing about tax cuts and suchlike? The Tory Party leadership race should surely be about who can best lead the party - i.e. who has the best leadership skills, to make existing policies actually happen - not about which policies to go for. Policies should be decided upon during a general election - that's what they're for, aren't they?][/quote]

This is because the "existing policies" as you call them are now outdated .The policies need to address current issues. The leadership skills are demonstrated by selecting suitable policies and then persuading others of their virtues .You cannot decide policies during an election .They should be presented as a manifesto prior to an election.
Biospace
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Re: Why are they arguing about policies?

Post by Biospace »

Perhaps England and a proportion of its voters are mistaken about the country's importance and influence in the modern world? Could it be possible this then leads to a completely deluded political class? Perhaps working from a 'Palace' doesn't help the mindset.

Slowly but surely, the costs of and barriers in the way of opportunities for successive generations are rising. Whether that's owning a house or an education above and beyond the average for those with well above average abilities. We're living in the 'I'm worth it' era, where everyone, apart from the most obvious failures, is a huge success - in their own mind.

The gap between the rich and the rest increases steadily and there's a trend for assets to move inexorably in the direction of huge corporations, which government have long preferred to smaller business as it's less work to control. The bigger the better perhaps, although some now suggest government isn't in control at all, it's the mega-corps.

The current Tory party scenario is utterly depressing, the more so because I don't see any alternative as any less incapable.
Carlton green
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Re: Why are they arguing about policies?

Post by Carlton green »

mumbojumbo wrote: 7 Aug 2022, 9:13pm
Why are Sunak and Truss arguing about tax cuts and suchlike? The Tory Party leadership race should surely be about who can best lead the party - i.e. who has the best leadership skills, to make existing policies actually happen - not about which policies to go for. Policies should be decided upon during a general election - that's what they're for, aren't they?]
This is because the "existing policies" as you call them are now outdated .The policies need to address current issues. The leadership skills are demonstrated by selecting suitable policies and then persuading others of their virtues .You cannot decide policies during an election .They should be presented as a manifesto prior to an election.
My bold.

Clearly Sunak and particularly Truss believe that you can make up policy during an election, everyday they appear to have new ideas announcing what they would do and then gauge how it goes down with the group of people able to vote for them. The popular announced policies are polished and the less popular shelved as they pander to their electorate. Neither candidate will serve the country or even their party well, but of the two Truss is my least preferred candidate and so by a clear margin.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
briansnail
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Re: Why are they arguing about policies?

Post by briansnail »

After Blair what's the real difference between the Conservatives and Labour. The current problems are no ones fault. However it is out of the effective control of any government.
Education, Education Education. Cut taxes raise taxes .The only certainty is public debt will continue soar. No politician will have the guts to tackle public debt if they want to stay in power. All politicians will do U turns 3 months after getting elected.
Bah! I an going for a quiet cycle ride. I trust my bike. Politicians not so sure.
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I ride Brompton and a 100% British Vintage
briansnail
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Re: Why are they arguing about policies?

Post by briansnail »

After Blair what's the real difference between the Conservatives and Labour. The current problems are no ones fault. However it is out of the effective control of any government.
Education, Education Education. Cut taxes raise taxes .The only certainty is public debt will continue soar. No politician will have the guts to tackle public debt if they want to stay in power. All politicians will do U turns 3 months after getting elected.
Bah! I an going for a quiet cycle ride. I trust my bike. Politicians not so sure.
*****************************************
I ride Brompton and a 100% British Vintage
Carlton green
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Re: Why are they arguing about policies?

Post by Carlton green »

The current situation certainly is somebody’s fault but the blame should be spread between both of the two major parties.

It certainly seems to be true that politicians have no long term plans other than staying in power regardless of how well their leadership supports the nation. We have what we have, it’s better than those in Russia and China enjoy but I’d be very glad to have government by consensus rather than simple majority and would bang all their heads together until they came up with rolling ten year plans that were both workable and followed.

Of the two beauties on display Sunak has more about him but, to be frank, the talent show has no outstanding talent.
Don’t fret, it’s OK to: ride a simple old bike; ride slowly, walk, rest and admire the view; ride off-road; ride in your raincoat; ride by yourself; ride in the dark; and ride one hundred yards or one hundred miles. Your bike and your choices to suit you.
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Cugel
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Re: Why are they arguing about policies?

Post by Cugel »

Carlton green wrote: 13 Aug 2022, 5:50pm The current situation certainly is somebody’s fault but the blame should be spread between both of the two major parties.

It certainly seems to be true that politicians have no long term plans other than staying in power regardless of how well their leadership supports the nation. We have what we have, it’s better than those in Russia and China enjoy but I’d be very glad to have government by consensus rather than simple majority and would bang all their heads together until they came up with rolling ten year plans that were both workable and followed.

Of the two beauties on display Sunak has more about him but, to be frank, the talent show has no outstanding talent.
"Fault".

In some ways, "faults" can be laid at the feet of various humans who are the means by which such faults are focussed and implemented. Many will suggest that it's some other agency puppeting the human operative, though. It's "the system" or "the ideology" or "the media" at fault. In many ways I agree with that notion - I feel all of us are puppets with our strings pulled by various mysterious (to us) agencies, from our genes to our memes, in all their various configurations that tend to operate us in acting madly, even if there is a small inner voice telling us, "Hang on there"!

But whether the human agents of these "faults" are puppeted or somehow deliberately and knowingly causing faults doesn't, in the end, matter. They need removing from the power of their agency. Ah ... but how? As we've learnt (ever so slowly) no political system is immune to these vast puppeteer powers when they pull those strings instead of these, of their human agents.

One might do "puppeteer-spotting". Its the mass media, particularly that newspap owner and that idiotbox channel controller! It's them CEOs of Planet Pillage R Uz! It's the bustard bankers!! But of course, they too are being puppeted by ..... the ever-heavier churn of our krazy kultural kapers. We really are all just "players on a stage" in a play writ by a mysterious author, adept at labyrinthine plot twists.

All the world’s a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts ...
.


Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
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