Archie Battersbee: No parent must go through this again - family

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thirdcrank
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Archie Battersbee: No parent must go through this again - family

Post by thirdcrank »

We had a brief discussion of this in another thread about low blood counts so I thought this might be time for a new thread

Archie Battersbee: No parent must go through this again - family
... In a statement released on Sunday, the family said the pressure of the process had been "unbelievable".

"We want something good to come out of this tragedy and the horrendous experience we have been put through by the system," they added.

"No parent or family must go through this again.

"We have been forced to fight a relentless legal battle by the hospital trust while faced with an unimaginable tragedy.

"We were backed into a corner by the system, stripped of all our rights, and have had to fight for Archie's real 'best interests' and right to live with everything stacked against us.

"This has now happened too often to parents who do not want their critically-ill children to have life-support removed.

"There must be an investigation and inquiry through the proper channels on what has happened to Archie, and we will be calling for change." ...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-62455467

Earlier thread here
viewtopic.php?p=1713545#p1713545
Jdsk
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Re: Archie Battersbee: No parent must go through this again - family

Post by Jdsk »

What happened:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archie_Battersbee_case

The parents weren't "stripped of all their rights". There was a dispute and their rights were preserved by their case being heard in court and to the full extent of the appeal process, including a new hearing.

An expert is promoting independent mediation rather than adjudication.
https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2022-08 ... ike-archie
As far as I know there is nothing to stop the parties agreeing to this. I'm generally in favour of attempts at mediation but it's not clear that it would be better overall as a policy or that it would have made any difference in this case.

It might be worth reviewing the rôle of ideologically motivated backers in this type of case. But it would be very problematic to prevent parents from turning to whomever they choose. In this case that was the Christian Legal Centre:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Legal_Centre
https://christianconcern.com/cccases/archie-battersbee/

Jonathan
axel_knutt
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Re: Archie Battersbee: No parent must go through this again - family

Post by axel_knutt »

When the NHS asked my permission to switch my father off 34 years ago I was quick to give it because I trusted them. I wouldn't be so naive now. When the NHS can get away with euthanasing patients just for being difficult there needs to be a lot more scrutiny and accountability.

It appears that the decision was fair and reasonable on the face of it, but when I read that courts will almost never make a ruling against a doctors opinion, it only serves to cast further doubt.
stripped of all our rights
It doesn't help that patients are led to believe that they have rights when they don't. I've lost count of the number of people who have told me that patients have a right of access to their records, but it isn't true, Section 5 para. (1)(a)(i) of the Access to Health Records Act 1990 allows records to be withheld for reasons that can easily be fabricated, because neither the patient nor his lawyer are allowed to hear or challenge them.

There are reams of rules, guidelines, codes of practice, and standards bandying rights and promises around, but nobody is enforcing them. The PHSO cited a paragraph from the GMC Guidelines at me in an attempt to prove the NHS had acted properly, so I cited another 18 paragraphs that had been blatantly flouted, along with numerous rules from their own codes of practice, but they just ignored the lot without explanation.

The Handbook to the NHS Constitution says:
“The NHS commits to ensure that you are treated with courtesy and you receive appropriate support throughout the handling of a complaint; and that the fact that you have complained will not adversely affect your future treatment.”
Try finding anyone who can point to a single policy that's in place to enforce that.

A lot of the cases like this could be avoided if the NHS were honest, and trustworthy.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
jb
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Re: Archie Battersbee: No parent must go through this again - family

Post by jb »

It's a great shame that we have become a society that thinks we know more than qualified experts. How many people I wonder were waiting for the equipment to become available.
Experts can be wrong of course but less likely than self proclaimed internet authorities, they are also more aware of the bigger picture in our struggling health service.
Cheers
J Bro
Biospace
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Re: Archie Battersbee: No parent must go through this again - family

Post by Biospace »

jb wrote: 7 Aug 2022, 7:17pm It's a great shame that we have become a society that thinks we know more than qualified experts. How many people I wonder were waiting for the equipment to become available.
Experts can be wrong of course but less likely than self proclaimed internet authorities, they are also more aware of the bigger picture in our struggling health service.

I'm not sure here is the place to discuss this, but isn't it the English deferential attitude and unquestioning trust in what some on this forum label 'the ruling classes' which lands us, time after time, with mis-management and scandal?

I'm not suggesting those in positions of power are in some way naturally unsuitable to be making decisions on behalf of others with less knowledge, less ability and less inclination for responsibilty since I've known the most outstanding people, pretty high up on the non-managerial side of the NHS, who are among the finest on the planet you'd ever wish to deal with, in the most trying circumstances known to Man. So inspirational that every last person working with them, including cleaners, have shown qualities that the finest management schools could only dream of instilling.

But, there are less idealogical, self-serving individuals who use the reverence which exists for others as cover to meet their own ends, and unfortunately a state run organisation the size of the NHS is the perfect place to remain hidden for the greatest possible time. Relatively few, but enough for horrific scandal after horrific scandal to have been exposed throughout the last four decades, at least.

So, I don't automatically say the NHS must be right, but in this sort of case it's likely the most which has gone wrong is an individual doctor's lack of ability to use the right words, perhaps a lack of sensitivity, followed by more inability to understand the psychology of a parent in these circumstances, possibly only made worse in the eyes of the family by a swift recourse to the legal system, full of more procedures and terminologies which although dealing with the most basic things in life, are alien to most of us.

On a broader note regarding 'experts', the economists and financiers are perhaps good examples of people who need a very careful eye focussed on their predictions and plans. Rishi Sunak is clearly an intelligent guy, but he and his civil servants at The Treasury have consistently got things wrong over the last year or more, despite many 'pundits' telling them exactly what would happen, which is now happening.
Last edited by Biospace on 7 Aug 2022, 10:54pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jdsk
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Re: Archie Battersbee: No parent must go through this again - family

Post by Jdsk »

I don't understand the connections that are being drawn between this tragic case and the structure of the NHS or to any scandals.

The same could have happened with any healthcare provider.

Jonathan
Biospace
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Re: Archie Battersbee: No parent must go through this again - family

Post by Biospace »

Jdsk wrote: 7 Aug 2022, 10:54pm I don't understand the connections that are being drawn between this tragic case and the structure of the NHS or to any scandals.

The same could have happened with any healthcare provider.

Jonathan
Absolutely it could.

In vaguely similar circumstances it was a professionalism beyond that which I've ever known in a group of individuals, one or two, in particular, which allowed me the freedom to keep a clear mind.

In part I was responding to the two posts above, one questioning any lack of trust in experts, the other giving a clear indication that the NHS isn't - and shouldn't be - something without deep flaws.
Last edited by Biospace on 8 Aug 2022, 12:11am, edited 1 time in total.
DaveReading
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Re: Archie Battersbee: No parent must go through this again - family

Post by DaveReading »

axel_knutt wrote: 7 Aug 2022, 5:20pmIt appears that the decision was fair and reasonable on the face of it, but when I read that courts will almost never make a ruling against a doctors opinion, it only serves to cast further doubt.
Courts hear evidence from expert witnesses all the time. Why would you expect a judge to rule that they aren't reliable ?
Jules59
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Re: Archie Battersbee: No parent must go through this again - family

Post by Jules59 »

Unfortunately the media continues to use incorrect and emotive terms to rabble rouse -the facts paying lip service to running a good story.

Prior to the advent of modern CPR in 1960, Archie would have been declared dead at his home as he was in hypoxia induced cardiac arrest when the ambulance arrived.
Subsequent advances in Intensive Care Medicine, (primarily artificial ventilation but also renal, liver and cardiovascular support) have lead to situations where it is possible to maintain the body of a dead person for quite a considerable time. For example to maintain the integrity of a pregnant brain dead woman's body to allow her child to be delivered alive and well. Without mechanical ventilation a brain stem dead person's heart will stop within minutes as they cannot breath themselves.
The understanding that the brain is the essence of being human is essential to grasp the concept of brain stem death.
This is the human nervous system and it contains our consciousness.
Screenshot 2022-08-07 231847.jpg
What we see on the outside is an evolved organic environmental suit which allows the consciousness to survive on this planet.
Death is the irreversible loss of consciousness and on an ITU, specific brain stem tests are conducted over time to determine that outcome.

The media gets its wrong by saying Archie died when the "life support" was withdrawn. The fact that Archie had been shown to be brain stem dead means he died well before the ventilatory support was removed, though the media fail repeatedly to acknowledge this for fear of spoiling their headlines. Similarly, "Life support" is a layperson term used when what they really mean is organ support. But they are not the same as otherwise we would not be able to undertake the removal of healthy organs for transplantation from dead individuals.
tim-b
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Re: Archie Battersbee: No parent must go through this again - family

Post by tim-b »

Grief takes us in different ways and goodness knows what his parents are going through
For me the issue is not within a well-established medical-legal procedure but with the cause which the press have said so little about
The issue is with social media, peers or wherever the investigation leads to stop children getting into this awful situation
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~
Jules59
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Re: Archie Battersbee: No parent must go through this again - family

Post by Jules59 »

The situation as awful for everyone - the patients, the relatives, the hospital staff.
But unless health care professionals stop attempting to resuscitate people following cardiac arrest, then we will continue to have people dying whilst receiving organ support and ending up in similar situations as this poor child, as we cannot predict the extent of brain recovery (if any) in the early stages.
Jules59
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Re: Archie Battersbee: No parent must go through this again - family

Post by Jules59 »

tim-b wrote: 8 Aug 2022, 7:07am Grief takes us in different ways and goodness knows what his parents are going through
For me the issue is not within a well-established medical-legal procedure but with the cause which the press have said so little about
The issue is with social media, peers or wherever the investigation leads to stop children getting into this awful situation
Yes it really quite scary to think there are people out there is social media land organising "challenges" which can persuade a child to loose their own life by undertaking a profoundly dangerous act.
Aikon
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Re: Archie Battersbee: No parent must go through this again - family

Post by Aikon »

Yes it really quite scary to think there are people out there is social media land organising "challenges" which can persuade a child to loose their own life by undertaking a profoundly dangerous act.
Also that Internet Service Providers are providing access to platforms containing harmful content without education on how to restrict access where appropriate, few people could set this up properly without support.
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mjr
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Re: Archie Battersbee: No parent must go through this again - family

Post by mjr »

Aikon wrote: 8 Aug 2022, 10:48am
Yes it really quite scary to think there are people out there is social media land organising "challenges" which can persuade a child to loose their own life by undertaking a profoundly dangerous act.
Also that Internet Service Providers are providing access to platforms containing harmful content without education on how to restrict access where appropriate, few people could set this up properly without support.
Do you really want you ISP to decide which websites you can and cannot access? There are already "safe" services if you really want them and, following a terrible campaign by the NSPCC, most large ISPs now block loads of legitimate websites as well as a few unsavory ones. Just last week, while on tour, one hotel ISP had blocked my usual search engine (Duck Duck Go) because it can be used to find dodgy websites if you switch all the safety features off. You know, like Google can be, but Google has bigger lawyers and has sued ISPs who block it.

That way lies madness, with dodgy deals between providers and ISPs and loads of money wasted in courts, plus it won't stop the SMS and email equivalents of the chain letters which did the rounds when I was at school, that tried to convince teenagers to harm themselves (and deity knows, some did not need encouragement). This is not a new problem or a social media problem or an internet problem. The best solution is to teach children not to do lethal things just because someone told them it was cool to!
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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simonineaston
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Re: Archie Battersbee: No parent must go through this again - family

Post by simonineaston »

I was so sad to hear of the little fellow's accident and its effect. Access to the internet is fraught with dangers especially for vulnerable people like youngsters. I was around enough switchings-off when I worked in an itu to know how horrid it is - and how peaceful and untroubled the poor folk on support can look.
That's an extraordinary picture, jules - half way between a nightmare vision and fascinating - I wonder who designed the system? :wink:
Last edited by simonineaston on 8 Aug 2022, 7:57pm, edited 1 time in total.
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