Crash and helmet

For all discussions about this "lively" subject. All topics that are substantially about helmet usage will be moved here.
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Nearholmer
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Re: Crash and helmet

Post by Nearholmer »

Another aspect to risk evaluation is that people regard risks over which they have some control differently to those which are imposed upon them.
Yes, some studies suggest that uner some circumstances we rate a given risk as much as 1000 fold greater if we have no personal control over it than if we have personal control over it.

There are big fat books about the psychology of risk perception - I've only delved a little way into it, and its a fascinating subject.
Last edited by Vorpal on 16 Aug 2022, 9:45am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fix quotes
gbnz
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Re: Crash and helmet

Post by gbnz »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 14 Aug 2022, 9:38pm
That is a bit unfair. The man has blackouts and I think he is very brave to carry on riding, even with a helmet!
Ah, apologies all round.

If there is a reason why you're more vulnerable than average, wearing a helmet makes a lot more sense.

I shall amend the original post too.
[/quote]

Thanks, not an issue. 301 miles last week :wink: . The fall Monday before last did surprise me, at how a fall directly on the head, hadn't resulted in any concussion type side effects. It's the first such fall I've had whilst wearing a helmet. Quite a contrast to concussion related side effects in earlier black outs, helmetless.

I'm well aware of the deficiencies of EN 1078 type cycle helmets, one of the reasons I'd stopped bothering with a helmet (Nb. Can't refer to an earlier career, but suppose I've experience investigating head/helmet issues in various disciplines; more substantial helmet types in other disciplines have always proved to be of value)
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pjclinch
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Re: Crash and helmet

Post by pjclinch »

gbnz wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 9:16am
The fall Monday before last did surprise me, at how a fall directly on the head, hadn't resulted in any concussion type side effects. It's the first such fall I've had whilst wearing a helmet. Quite a contrast to concussion related side effects in earlier black outs, helmetless.
I'm not trying to suggest the helmet wasn't a useful and significant factor, but it's also important to note that with such a small sample this is an anecdote, and not data. It could just be that your luck in exactly how and where you hit your head on the helmeted occasion significantly contributed to the end result, for example.

You'll need to crash and whack your head far more often for it to be really useful data... I'd say one of those cases where you are really better off not knowing for sure!

Pete.
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pjclinch
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Re: Crash and helmet

Post by pjclinch »

Tiggertoo wrote: 12 Aug 2022, 9:56pm I crashed last Friday - wheels went out from under me on a tight/wet curve - and banged up my knee, arm and thigh (all mendable), but for the first time crashing - I have done it a few times (mostly by dogs) my head hit the pavement hard and set my head pounding.

The reason I am posting this thread is that my helmet broke along the side receiving the blow. If I had not been wearing the helmet, I would not be here today to write this.
Think how often these crashes occur in places like the Netherlands, where outside of sport riding and tourists pretty much nobody wears helmets but millions ride bikes and occasionally they fall off them. Think how often a head whack occurs in places like a primary school playground and the standard response is a trip to the office for a cry, a sticker and some TLC (in the school my kids were at, often enough that they kept sheets of "I've banged my head!" stickers and had a form letter to send to parents noting a child had had a head injury).

Now realise that this is one of the sorts of fall the human skull has evolved to prevent death from. The chances of it killing you, even if it managed to fracture a bit of expanded polystyrene, is very low. It's easy to crack an EN1078 helmet. It's hard to fracture a skull, even harder to kill you.

Chances that you're engaging in some confirmation bias is IMHO very high.

I'm not saying you'd have been better or just as well off without a helmet, just that a bump, graze and headache is some way short of death.

Last time I fell off my bike and hit my head was getting on for 20 years ago. My helmet didn't help because I took it on the chin (probably made it a little worse, adding some energy to my head when it hit the ground). My jaw didn't shatter, I survived to tell the tale. Had the helmet protected me it would have been a write off (that's how they work). I did go to A&E to see if it was worth a stitch (it wasn't), and you need to look very closely to see the scar. Did it convince me to wear a helmet that protected my chin? No.

Pete.
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mattheus
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Re: Crash and helmet

Post by mattheus »

Nearholmer wrote: 14 Aug 2022, 11:50am <snip>We are in a symbiosis with cars and lorries, and unpicking that and re-stitching it differently would be a monster job, the first step of which is to have the will to do it.

There are odd places where it is genuinely happening, in a sort-of exploratory way, but not many, Cambridge being one. Interesting that it is a place with a younger and far better educated population than most which is trying it.
I have to dis-agree with the bias in your post.

"would be" ?? We've started!! there are initiatives all around!!! Open your eyes, read around a few cycle-campaigning blogs. Even the CUK mag :idea:

"there are odd places ... "
Active travel schemes are everywhere! Certainly every big city in the UK (including little 'ol Oxford near me, which has been perversely anti-bike for decades).
Nearholmer
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Re: Crash and helmet

Post by Nearholmer »

Are you telling me that you honestly think that moving away from our symbiosis with cars and lorries is NOT a monster job? Really??!!

Or, that what is currently being done to persuade people to move from inactive to active travel nation-wide is more than a tiny scratch on the surface?

Or, that the vast majority of the population are engaged enough in the question to care two hoots about it?

Or, that it is really a serious priority of national government, or a serious priority of more than a handful of local authorities?

You and I may both think it’s a really important issue, we may both care passionately about it, but the vast majority of people don’t, and failure to recognise that can only make it harder to get anything done.
mattheus
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Re: Crash and helmet

Post by mattheus »

Nearholmer wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 3:50pm You and I may both think it’s a really important issue, we may both care passionately about it, but the vast majority of people don’t, and failure to recognise that can only make it harder to get anything done.
Show me how building this obstacle up into an unclimbable mountain is helping.
How have YOU turned this grand realisation into a way of getting anything done?

(pls also go look at the "Before" pictures of cycling heaven Holland. circa 1970, if I recall correctly. What would Dutch NearHolmer in 1970 be saying? )
Nearholmer
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Re: Crash and helmet

Post by Nearholmer »

I can give you a hundred constructive thoughts if you’re really interested, although I doubt many of them would be particularly original, I’m sure they’ve all been considered by people like Chris Boardman - is there a more appropriate thread than this one, because they don’t have anything to do with cycle helmets?
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Re: Crash and helmet

Post by Vorpal »

Bickering & personal attacks removed.

Please argue nicely.
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mattheus
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Re: Crash and helmet

Post by mattheus »

Nearholmer wrote: 16 Aug 2022, 8:53am I can give you a hundred constructive thoughts if you’re really interested, although I doubt many of them would be particularly original, I’m sure they’ve all been considered by people like Chris Boardman - is there a more appropriate thread than this one, because they don’t have anything to do with cycle helmets?
Plenty of space on the forum for optimism and positive ideas, my friend!

I don't come here to be told I shouldn't try to improve the world, because I've naively underestimated the problem. :idea:
Nearholmer
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Re: Crash and helmet

Post by Nearholmer »

Neither of which things I did.

I simply laid out some of the challenges, the rest is your construct.
mattheus
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Re: Crash and helmet

Post by mattheus »

Hmmm. OK. But I feel you might want to review how text like this MIGHT be interpreted:
Nearholmer wrote: 14 Aug 2022, 11:50am Being brutally frank about it, what you or I would like, which are probably very similar things, doesn’t matter a jot unless a critical-mass of our fellow citizens feel the same, and right now they don’t.
I see nothing positive there. Nada. Happy for you to prove me wrong in future postings!
saudidave
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Re: Crash and helmet

Post by saudidave »

I've read most of this thread and my personal view is very straightforward:-

1 I've been riding bikes on public highways for 58 years, since I was 11yrs old; I passed my cycling proficiency test then and my dad let me loose. In that time the density of traffic has increased exponentially.

2 Since then the number of irrespnsible d******ds driving cars has increased exponentially

3 I don't really know how much good, statistically, that bike helmets really do, but I do know that mine is not at all uncomfortable to wear, even in scorching heat and I suspect that a bash of the napper with one on is considerably less painful/potentially fatal/debilitating than a naked skull contacting with a kerb or car wheel/bodywork at the same velocity.

4 In view of point 3 above, I'll persist in wearing mine. It's not rocket science

Yours, Captain sensible
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mjr
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Re: Crash and helmet

Post by mjr »

5. If wearing a helmet makes it moderately more likely that bad drivers will take more chances with you, the expected loss quickly outweighs any expected benefit.

6. Chris Boardman said "I manufacture the things. In an incident with a car they will have almost no effect." So there's almost no benefit anyway.

No, it isn't rocket science. It's statistics and most people suck at it.
Last edited by mjr on 21 Aug 2022, 10:55pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cugel
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Re: Crash and helmet

Post by Cugel »

saudidave wrote: 21 Aug 2022, 7:45pm I've read most of this thread and my personal view is very straightforward:-

1 I've been riding bikes on public highways for 58 years, since I was 11yrs old; I passed my cycling proficiency test then and my dad let me loose. In that time the density of traffic has increased exponentially.

2 Since then the number of irrespnsible d******ds driving cars has increased exponentially

3 I don't really know how much good, statistically, that bike helmets really do, but I do know that mine is not at all uncomfortable to wear, even in scorching heat and I suspect that a bash of the napper with one on is considerably less painful/potentially fatal/debilitating than a naked skull contacting with a kerb or car wheel/bodywork at the same velocity.

4 In view of point 3 above, I'll persist in wearing mine. It's not rocket science

Yours, Captain sensible
Ah, bad news I'm afraid. Those polystyrene hats are not engineered to protect you from the rabid car drivers and their weapons. No. The hats are to stop your headache from being a bit worse should you topple over as you fail to get your foot off the all-too-clipped pedal, so bang your napper at no more than about 10mph on the flat verge. I've found, though, in my own 63 years of cycling, that it's best not to fall off the bike, so I don't.

But if you do, a spiky thing will be guided through the p-hat by it's many slots, so keep away from railings and mad blokes waving swords, as they allow their road rage to get the better of them! (P-hats are no good with sword-swipes either).

A car-bash to your noggin will crush hat, noggin and your life to a squelchy mess, I'm afraid. You won't even get to hear the motorised weapon-wielder telling you, "SMIDSY". Still, a nurse won't tell you off when she sees your p-hat in the morgue. Phew.

Cugel
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John Maynard Keynes
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