Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

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slowster
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Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by slowster »

Every time I ride my 1980s Raleigh tourer I am struck by how much more comfortable it is and how nice it feels compared to modern touring/gravel bikes. Decades ago this type of bike probably accounted for the majority of the quality bike market. Now it seems to be almost impossible to buy a bike or frame of this type off the shelf.

I recently read a 2016 thread 531colin started on frame stiffness, which was apparently prompted by his findings when designing and testing prototypes for Spa's titanium Elan. This was one of his comments towards the end of that thread:
531colin wrote: 20 Mar 2016, 7:41am the difficulty in designing a "tourer"......one bike can't be "ideal" for unladen riding and also loaded up with 4 panniers. I'm light for my height, (skinny) so I often end up riding bikes that are overbuilt. Somebody heavy for their height (muscular) might hit the opposite problem.
I would like to design a "light tourer", that would be a bike with low gears, good brakes and taking a sensible range of tyre sizes, but built light for day rides and B&B touring....but I think a "light tourer" would have an image problem, and the more different bikes you list, the more money you have sitting on shelves.
Another contributor to that thread was james-o (viewtopic.php?p=994021#p994021), who designed bikes for Genesis and later for Evans, including the Croix de Fer and the Pinnacle Arkose. He posts more on the Singletrackworld and Bearbones forums, and I was struck by his various posts on the second page of a recent Singletrackworld thread on steel road bikes (https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topi ... hts/page/2), in particular his comments about how his views on frame stiffness have changed.

Brucey wrote so many posts about this subject that I find it almost impossible to search through them to find any particular one, but it was clear that he was in favour of frames with threaded 1" steerers, quill stems and traditional narrow clamp diameter bars. Currently if someone wants a light tourer like that, the choice is either to seek a nice second hand example on Ebay, or to get a custom frame made.

My own experience of different bikes is nowhere near as extensive as many on this forum, but I don't think any of the bikes or frames currently on the market are a substitute for a light tourer. Despite the objections that 531colin lists above, I think there are good reasons why a light tourer could be commercially viable:

- The differences between a light tourer versus the touring and gravel bikes currently on the market are large. In other words there is a significant gap in the market. Bike brands mostly compete with each other with similar product ranges, and sometimes with a lot of overlap between the various bikes in their line ups, e.g. Surly.

- Whoever introduces a light tourer will probably have the market to themselves. I think the market would be too small for the big manufacturers to consider it worthwhile adding a light tourer to their range, and an added factor which I think would discourage them is that a light tourer is not suited to complete builds using current groupsets or mainstream components. I think only Spa or SJS/Thorn are currently well placed to develop and sell a light tourer.

To be clear, by light tourer I mean a steel frame with (certainly in the medium and smaller sizes) a 1" steerer, 1" top tube and 1 1/8" down tube, clearance for ~35mm tyres with mudguards, and - as 531colin stated - designed for lightly laden touring.
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by cycle tramp »

It's very possible that the light tourer may be the next big thing in cycling in the next few years....
..only they'll be called 'discless racers' and yes, will be using rim brakes...
..the advertising promoting them will focus on the fork forks and rear stays which - because they won't have to deal with the stresses of disc brakes will be made lighter and more springy..expect any advertising to mention 'naturallly compliant' alot, also narrower tyres will feature and the bikes weight - lighter frame, thinner tyres may also feature heavily in any promotional material... rather than speed being the issue, the adverts may focus on acceleration...
It's possible that discless racers may still be made from carbon fibre, but I suspect as every cyclist 'clearly' has one or two of those, the alternative is the lugged steel frame with narrow tubes. .,...Some sort of retro t-shirt may be launched with the new bikes....
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Nearholmer
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by Nearholmer »

Could such a bike be made strong enough in the head, and have good enough brakes, to be bashed about a bit off-road?

I ask, because “B&B touring and day rides” is what I do, using a gravel-specced Croix de Fer, and two of the things I value about it are the very good disc brakes, and it’s evident robustness. What it isn’t though, is particularly springy under the weight of me and light luggage (c90kg combined). It needs 40mm tubeless tyres to prevent it being a total bone shaker off-road, which then gets a bit of a drag on the tarmac bits.

If these things are possible, then maybe this mythical bike could be marketed as ‘super-comfy gravel’.

PS: do such things as hydraulic rim brakes exist?
Last edited by Nearholmer on 14 Aug 2022, 11:30pm, edited 1 time in total.
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geomannie
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by geomannie »

An interesting post.

My day to day bike is exactly that, a traditional light tourer, a 1987 Raleigh Royale which I bought from new. It has suited me so well I have kept it running and suitably upgraded as necessary. Maximum tyre size is 30mm however but I think I might squeeze in 32mm without mudguards (but why would I?).

It remains a delight to ride quickly unladen as well as to tour, even taking fairly hefty cycle camping loads without complaint. I look at modern touring bikes; for example several of my friends have Thorns, and while nicely engineered, all my friends complain about the weight. I also have a Genesis Vagabond which is very comfortable but heavy & stiff to ride. To my mind they are all way overbuilt for the use they are likely to get.

I like my Royale so much so that when I very recently found a very similar Raleigh Randonneur frame, albeit in pretty poor condition & minus a fork, I took the trouble to build it into a working bike using components from my parts bin. It too is a delight to ride. I have no idea what I am going to do with it; I just couldn't stand the idea of such a lovely frame being scrapped.

So yes, light tourers, a bike type that is currently ignored by manufacturers.
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by PH »

There's probably more choice and variety of light tourers available now, in all frame materials, than at any time I can remember. Just have a look at the LEL gallery of riders and bikes at the end.
https://www.charlottebarnes.co.uk/lel2022portraits

So what you seem to be asking is if there's a market for some retro bike? There is, but it's a small one with a few players already catering for it. Preferences have moved on, you could call it fashion, except many unfashionable cyclists are leaving their old light tourers in the shed and riding stuff more modern.
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by pwa »

I wonder if one's perception of this is influenced by one's weight and height. I can see why someone weighing 75kg a riding a small frame might find they can have a pleasant ride on a bike with slender tubes and a bit of flex built in here and there. But I am nearer 95kg and over the years I have found slender tube bikes to be unnervingly noodly, especially on fast descents. It is only since slightly wider tubes and aheadset steering became the norm that I have found I can feel confident that my bike won't feel like mush going into a fast corner. Bear in mind that my extra mass is accompanied by a need for a large frame size. My early years in cycling were plagued with problems caused by excessive flex in the frameset.

And having a lot of stiffness in the frame and forks does not mean abandoning a plush ride. These days we can enjoy the greater choice of higher volume, supple tyres. We are no longer struggling along with 23mm rubber and having to look to the frameset to supply springiness. We can leave the frameset to do the rigidness thing a bit better and rely more on good, higher volume tyres to refine the ride.

The market for the kind of bike suggested will be niche. Smaller, lighter cyclists wishing to rely more on the frame and forks for comfort, less on the tyres, and therefore not needing higher volume tyres. And we are probably talking about people wanting to do recreational cycling mostly on roads and sealed surface tracks. And people who want a performance frameset that isn't carbon. That will be a small market for a mass manufacturer to chase.
Tangled Metal
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by Tangled Metal »

Niche requirement has to look to custom bike builders shocker! Seriously though, I wonder if it's a little bit of overthinking it? As you learn more about bikes you become able to work out your own ideal spec list. The deeper into this you go the more likely you are to be unable to source it from mainstream suppliers who simply cater for the market that is profitable not the deep bike thinker.
rogerzilla
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by rogerzilla »

Isn't that close to an audax bike?
rareposter
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by rareposter »

I'd say no.*
I think there's already a plethora of "adventure" bikes out there that fit between road/CX/gravel/audax, they've been tuned to ride well unladen or with light luggage, there's a whole host of luggage options (bikepacking, lightweight panniers etc) and materials engineering has progressed beyond 1" steel!

https://alpkit.com/products/sonder-camino-al-grx2
https://www.cotic.co.uk/product/cascade
https://www.cotic.co.uk/product/escapade

Good examples - great little do it all bikes, (one in alu, the two Cotics in steel), versatile, changeable, customisable, they'll take 650b or 700c wheels, any amount of tyre size...

*Edit for clarification: by "no" I mean, not a new model as you describe, there's a huge range of basically what is nearly as you state.
Last edited by rareposter on 15 Aug 2022, 9:07am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by al_yrpal »

I have always thought of my Salsa Vaya as a light tourer. Steel frame and less of a clunker than the Trucker. It has discs but the additional weight is minimal. I shod mine with Panaracer Paselas for maximum comfort.
Vaya
Vaya
Salsa themselves claim it is a gravel/ light tourer so they are ahead of this game

https://www.salsacycles.com/bikes/road/Vaya

Having done several tours on it the Vaya wasnt really suitable for cycle camping, it was too whippy to carry a full load of 16kg plus me. OK for credit card touring with about 9kg though.

Al
Last edited by al_yrpal on 15 Aug 2022, 4:57pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by fossala »

I always put this down to modern safety standards. The two most comfortable bicycles I’ve owned (531 royal and a 753 Mercian) both have massive visual flex in the fork. Would this be acceptable on a modern mass production bike?
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by mjr »

rogerzilla wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 6:53am Isn't that close to an audax bike?
or Thorn's Club Tour or their sports tourer, the Mercury.

Not sure there is a big gap in the market here. In fact, there seem to be more nearly-options than for a while.
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Sweep
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by Sweep »

rogerzilla wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 6:53am Isn't that close to an audax bike?
kind of what I was thinking.
Also strikes me that the Hewitt Cheviot SE is an ideal light tourer/day ride bike - bought mine as a full on tourer but don't use as that.
No longer current I believe but lots still around (including on here fairly often) and the frame also had other brandings.
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fossala
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by fossala »

Sweep wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 9:09am
rogerzilla wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 6:53am Isn't that close to an audax bike?
kind of what I was thinking.
Also strikes me that the Hewitt Cheviot SE is an ideal light tourer/day ride bike - bought mine as a full on tourer but don't use as that.
No longer current I believe but lots still around (including on here fairly often) and the frame also had other brandings.
I don’t think it is, nor the thorns. If you compare them to something from 20 years ago you’ll notice how unforgiving they are.
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Sweep
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Re: Is there a market for an off the shelf steel light tourer?

Post by Sweep »

fossala wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 9:47am
Sweep wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 9:09am
rogerzilla wrote: 15 Aug 2022, 6:53am Isn't that close to an audax bike?
kind of what I was thinking.
Also strikes me that the Hewitt Cheviot SE is an ideal light tourer/day ride bike - bought mine as a full on tourer but don't use as that.
No longer current I believe but lots still around (including on here fairly often) and the frame also had other brandings.
I don’t think it is, nor the thorns. If you compare them to something from 20 years ago you’ll notice how unforgiving they are.
I'm no tech expert on these mysteries but mine feels pretty light on its feet since I changed the Conti touring tyres it came with to Vittoria Hypers.
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