belt drive and IGH

[tempsperdu]

Just run across the VEER split belt drive system.
Anyone using one?

I started out looking at Rohloff then discovered Enviolo internally geared hubs.
Big in Europe apparently and sort of cross between a Rohloff and an Alfine automatic.
Specialized have them in their range but not seen or tried one yet.
Again anyone ridden or using Enviolo or Alfine auto on an ebike?

[squeaker]

Enviolo is a CVT (continuously variable transmission), so nothing like a Rohloff (which uses meshing gears giving stepped ratios). Under its former guise as NuVinci CVT it had a reputation for poor efficiency, but this may be less of an issue with an e-bike.

[rareposter]

I test rode a hybrid-style e-bike that had a NuVinci on a local demo day for e-commuter / e-cargo bikes. Basically the local community group had contacted various local cycling groups and managed to get a dozen folk who owned various e-bikes plus a local shop together for a day at the Leisure Centre for little test rides, talk through them, promote their use for local trips etc - it was a community initiative not a formal bike company demo thing.

It was super smooth, really easy to use.
The guy who had loaned the bike out said he'd had no issues with it, he'd done about 6000 miles on it since getting it, mostly (from what he was saying) local-ish trips but he'd ridden the 40 miles over to the event (including some significant hills!) and he sometimes did longer weekend trips.

I'd like to try one of the Specialized ones at some point but the difficulty is finding somewhere with stock!

[cycle tramp]

Enviolo is a CVT (continuously variable transmission), so nothing like a Rohloff (which uses meshing gears giving stepped ratios). Under its former guise as NuVinci CVT it had a reputation for poor efficiency, but this may be less of an issue with an e-bike.

...oh God.... No! For the love of God, Nooooooooo!

I attempted three tours on a NcVinci hub.
If you have any knee issues (because you have infinite choice of gears between to highest and lowest) and/or riding short distances they're actually quite fun, especially around town (no missed shifts!)

However if you're doing any more than 15 miles then I would stay away. The issue is that because the hub uses transmission fluid as the way of transmitting energy from your pedals to the rear wheel, efficiency falls to something like 85% as apposed to 97% for a derailleur bicycle.

Antidotely speaking I found that the efficiency of the hub was also affected by temperature. If found it was more efficient in cool days and cool evenings, and during rain storms, but very inefficient on hot days above 25'c.
The net result was when I was touring I would be ready for bed at around 1pm (after some 30 miles) while the rest of the group were eagerly looking forward to continuing the journey to the yha (after 30 miles) Not only did it sap my energy, it also sapped my (small) ability to maintain a decent top speed with the group. Even on a short charity tour of mixed abilities the nu-vinci hub put me somewhere close to the back...
In the end I gave it away on this forum and replaced it with a SA 3 speed hub. I then did the same charity ride with the 3 speed hub a year later, and found that my time had improved and I was riding close to the front if the group.... I then later replaced with a SA drum brake and 5 speed freewheel...
..given the choice of a nu-vinci hub or a 5 speed freewheel, I'm taking the 5 speed freewheel

[rareposter]

The issue is that because the hub uses transmission fluid as the way of transmitting energy from your pedals to the rear wheel, efficiency falls to something like 85% as apposed to 97% for a derailleur bicycle.

Not really an issue with an e-bike though, the motor overcomes any inefficiencies within the hub. Running it with a belt drive also helps the efficiency. You're right, it's not as good as a derailleur system but very little is - most hub gears run at about 92-95% efficiency (the difference being that they're always at that level whereas a derailleur system can be up at 97+% when new / well maintained and easily drop to mid 80's % if it's worn or absolutely filthy).

Alee Denham (touring cyclist, runs the CyclingAbout youtube channel) has done loads of stuff on gearbox vs derailleur.
https://www.cyclingabout.com/speed-diff ... x-systems/

Marginally less relevant on e-bikes though.

[Carlton green]

Even on a short charity tour of mixed abilities the nu-vinci hub put me somewhere close to the back...
In the end I gave it away on this forum and replaced it with a SA 3 speed hub. I then did the same charity ride with the 3 speed hub a year later, and found that my time had improved and I was riding close to the front if the group

That experience of the nu-vinci says as much as most of us need to know - they’re best avoided.

It was interesting to read about the humble SA AW being good for riding close to the front of the (mixed ability) group. Until quite recent years I undervalued SA three speed hub gears; other gearing arrangements have their advantages but with a smart set-up and thoughtful use an SA AW can move a cyclist along surprisingly well.

[cycle tramp]

The issue is that because the hub uses transmission fluid as the way of transmitting energy from your pedals to the rear wheel, efficiency falls to something like 85% as apposed to 97% for a derailleur bicycle.

Not really an issue with an e-bike though, the motor overcomes any inefficiencies within the hub. Running it with a belt drive also helps the efficiency.

Depends where the motor is placed. If its in the front hub, then the nu-vinci inefficiencies are irrelevant. If the motor is in the frame and driven through the nu-vinci hub then all its going to do is mask the inefficiencies. Indeed if the transmission fluid heats then those inefficiencies may increase.
If I was purchasing an e-bike I would still want the range to be as far as possible, which means the transmission should be as efficient as possible.
If you took the same motor and the same battery fitted to a nuvinci fitted bike and a derailleur fitted bike you would get a better range from the derailleur bike.
The other issue with the nu-vinci hub is that it's seals are rumoured to leak transmission fluid at 12,000 miles. Personally I never kept mine long enough to find out.
On a separate note, I was always given to understand that belt drives were more inefficient than chain drives.

[UpWrong]

Interesing points. I have been considering a Gazelle with an Enviolo hub. The poor efficiency is more at the extremes of the gear range I believe. It's an interesting post about the temperature making a difference.

No experience but I've heard commentators report that eBike hire shops love enviolo hubs because they are so reliable and low maintenance.

It seems to me that all the IGHs apart from the Rohloff have faults, limitations and weaknesses. Yet it would be nice to have a reliable, low maintenance IGH option which costs lest than a Rohloff.

[Stevek76]

Not really an issue with an e-bike though, the motor overcomes any inefficiencies within the hub. Running it with a belt drive also helps the efficiency.

If I was purchasing an e-bike I would still want the range to be as far as possible, which means the transmission should be as efficient as possible.

Agreed, while I'd be more than happy to lose efficiency for other practical gains (e.g. hubs generally) I've never really been a fan of the tendency of some manufactures to spec ebikes on the basis of "it's powered so we can load it with all sorts of rubbish!" and they end up with stupid suspension, tyres that look to be off a motorbike (or just marathon plus ) and incredibly heavy (which is an accessibility issue for some whilst this country continues to assume bikes should just be manhandled at points)

[PH]

That experience of the nu-vinci says as much as most of us need to know - they’re best avoided.

I think, most of us will reserve judgment till at least on person can relate their experience within the context of the OP's question.
I test rode a R&M Multicharger with one, I asked for any experience on a thread here but there didn't seem to be a lot. I fond riding it a bit odd, in an unfamiliar sort of way, whether I'd have got used to it i don't know, I only had it for an hour.
That R&M and so many other high end E-bike producers are offering them, indicates to me they have a higher opinion of them than cycle tramp.

EDIT - here's the thread I started last year, a couple of people with experience of them on an E-bike contributed, both positive.
viewtopic.php?t=147103&hilit=Enviolo

[PH]

Yet it would be nice to have a reliable, low maintenance IGH option which costs lest than a Rohloff.

Alfine 8 has almost the same gearing range as an Enviolo and is known for it's reliability. Alfine 11 might to be a contender now the earlier reliability issues seem to have been addressed. But really if you want all the benefits of a Rphloff, that's what it's going to cost, you have to consider it a long term investment, if you do so the perception of it's value might change. My 18 year old one has been great value and I'd expect to get 50%+ of the cost back if I stuck it on ebay (Not that I have any intention of doing so!)

[rareposter]

Depends where the motor is placed. If its in the front hub, then the nu-vinci inefficiencies are irrelevant. If the motor is in the frame and driven through the nu-vinci hub then all its going to do is mask the inefficiencies. Indeed if the transmission fluid heats then those inefficiencies may increase.

The efficiency is not the point - they're spec'd on very "utility" e-bikes, the sort that are best suited to shopping trips (and which we all urgently need to shift far more journeys to!). The user group they're aimed at is people in normal clothes, doing normal everyday errands and the convenience of a hub gear (no mess, no cleaning / lubing chains, nothing to adjust) is of far greater benefit than any minor loss of efficiency which won't be noticed once you stick a motor on there.

https://www.gazellebikes.com/en-gb/ulti ... -teal-grey

https://www.specializedconceptstore.co. ... o-5-0-igh/

https://www.specializedconceptstore.co. ... 9119/2021/

All of those will do up to 100km - the potential loss of a few km due to "inefficiency" in a hub gear set-up is not even a factor especially once it's loaded down with shopping, the manner in which it's ridden (upright riding position, normal clothes).

The simplicity of a stepless transmission and belt drive though is a massive win.

[UpWrong]

Yet it would be nice to have a reliable, low maintenance IGH option which costs lest than a Rohloff.

Alfine 8 has almost the same gearing range as an Enviolo and is known for it's reliability. Alfine 11 might to be a contender now the earlier reliability issues seem to have been addressed. But really if you want all the benefits of a Rphloff, that's what it's going to cost, you have to consider it a long term investment, if you do so the perception of it's value might change. My 18 year old one has been great value and I'd expect to get 50%+ of the cost back if I stuck it on ebay (Not that I have any intention of doing so!)

The Alfine 8 doesn't have regular gear spacing, tends to be less efficient in the gears you'd use the most (or was that the nexus 7? -too lazy to check now - yes NEXUS 7 sorry), and has a mushy feel with possible transmission losses because of the roller clutches. But I should try one.

I think you're right about the Rohloff.

EDIT: Yep, NEXUS 7 is the one with more losses in the most used gears.

[PH]

The Alfine 8 .... But I should try one.

Yes you should. There's no guarantee you'll like it, but for me, when I don't need the gear range I'm as happy to use an Alfine 8 as a Rohloff.

[squeaker]

It seems to me that all the IGHs apart from the Rohloff have faults, limitations and weaknesses.

IME Rohloff has it's own weaknesses: weight and gear change feel to name but two