Cycling UK Forum

I wish there was a like button here! So much excellent and thoughtful advice!

Forgive my ignorance, but I'm a little confused how putting the saddle further back would help? I would have thought that would increase pelvic anterior tilt, resulting in more pressure on my perineum? I'm entirely open to being wildly wrong though.

The stem on the Mercian is 140 or 150mm if memory serves. The photos show me sitting on it after I've just dropped the saddle 10mm and put it 10mm further forward, so it's not quite the position that caused the pain.

Looking at my two road bikes and one gravel bike lined up, the Mercian definitely has the narrowest saddle, and perhaps it's just not wide enough for my sit bones. I'll have a look for a new saddle and stick to the Orbea for now.

I'll get some similar photos of me on the 61cm Orbea, if you think it's worthwhile? It's a slightly different set up.

I did once have a 64cm bike built for me by Ribble in 2000 (when they still did custom bikes). Campagnolo Daytona triple groupset, Scandium Alloy frameset and it cost me £1066. I was only 16 at the time and could only afford it because a slightly drunk driver knocked me off my previous bike and the insurance payout was quite generous! I wish I still had that bike.

There are difficulties associated with my height (I'm one in 20,000 tall, if that makes sense). Being statistically insignificant means bikes just aren't built for me.

Jon in Sweden wrote: ↑27 Aug 2022, 10:52am ...
Forgive my ignorance, but I'm a little confused how putting the saddle further back would help? I would have thought that would increase pelvic anterior tilt, resulting in more pressure on my perineum? I'm entirely open to being wildly wrong though.

The stem on the Mercian is 140 or 150mm if memory serves. The photos show me sitting on it after I've just dropped the saddle 10mm and put it 10mm further forward, so it's not quite the position that caused the pain.
...

There's a couple of distinct strands of advice appearing: position on the bike and contact between the perineum and the saddle.

Putting the saddle further back is in the first of these. See "Saddle Setback" in Colin's article:
https://wheel-easy.org.uk/wp-content/up ... -2017a.pdf

Jonathan

PS: What a pleasure when someone asks a question and then engages with the responses! : - )

Jon in Sweden wrote: ↑27 Aug 2022, 10:52am I wish there was a like button here! So much excellent and thoughtful advice!

Forgive my ignorance, but I'm a little confused how putting the saddle further back would help? I would have thought that would increase pelvic anterior tilt, resulting in more pressure on my perineum? I'm entirely open to being wildly wrong though.

I believe you are right. IME that’s exactly what happens.
I’m not saying you’re position might not be improved by pushing the saddle back but your immediate need is to relieve that perineum pressure.
Looking at the saddles some people ride they must have an armoured perineum as it doesn’t appear to be a problem to them. They, I believe, are people who don’t tilt their pelvis but achieve their position bending their back. I, a tilter, can identify with your problem as I’ve had some saddles would take my breath away when going into the drops.

Jdsk wrote: ↑27 Aug 2022, 11:11am There's a couple of distinct strands of advice appearing: position on the bike and contact between the perineum and the saddle.

Putting the saddle further back is in the first of these. See "Saddle Setback" in Colin's article:
https://wheel-easy.org.uk/wp-content/up ... -2017a.pdf

Jonathan

PS: What a pleasure when someone asks a question and then engages with the responses! : - )

I shall spend a bit of time with the article and the bike this afternoon and see where it gets me. Thanks again for the help and pointers

Paulatic wrote: ↑27 Aug 2022, 11:19am
I believe you are right. IME that’s exactly what happens.
I’m not saying you’re position might not be improved by pushing the saddle back but your immediate need is to relieve that perineum pressure.
Looking at the saddles some people ride they must have an armoured perineum as it doesn’t appear to be a problem to them. They, I believe, are people who don’t tilt their pelvis but achieve their position bending their back. I, a tilter, can identify with your problem as I’ve had some saddles would take my breath away when going into the drops.

I think you're probably right on the cast iron perineums! I have good posterior chain flexibility (can not only touch my toes but put my hands flat on the floor) but when hunkering down into a more aero position, it tends to come from pelvic tilt rather than back bending.

Jon in Sweden wrote: ↑27 Aug 2022, 10:52am Forgive my ignorance, but I'm a little confused how putting the saddle further back would help? I would have thought that would increase pelvic anterior tilt, resulting in more pressure on my perineum?

It is possible even if I were generally correct, that it might not apply to you, and you might be an exception (which might be only to be expected, given that your body dimensions are exceptional).

My own experience and perception is that if the saddle is too far forward:

- I cannot comfortably ride no handed (feels like I am going to slide off the front of the saddle) - not important per se, but an indication to me that I am not balanced on the bike.
- There is too much weight on my hands, causing discomfort after a while.
- I cannot seem to find a comfortable position on the saddle - rather than my sit bones maintaining the same approximate location on the saddle, I think I tend to move around frequently, including (I think) sliding forward of what would be my normal/ideal position.

I think the last point is key, because sliding forward means as the saddle narrows from rear to front, the sit bones will sink below the apex of the saddle's curve*, and consequently the perineum will end up supporting more of your weight on the apex of the saddle. (* Most saddles have a curved top - there are some with a relatively flat top, like the Fizik Arione, and I imagine sliding forward on one of those has much less effect on sit bone height/perineum compression.)

Jon in Sweden wrote: ↑26 Aug 2022, 7:03pm I've always found that my saddle feels like it's too far back. It's not that I'm having to reach for the handle bars, just that my hips feel like they want to be further forward in relation to the cranks. I think that's why I'm inclined to sit too far forward on the saddle.

The above comment suggests to me that you are experiencing what I describe above. I think once your saddle set back is correct, you will no longer feel a need or wish to slide forward on the saddle.

Even once you have the saddle set back at that 'balance point' as alluded to in 531colin's guide on bike fitting, I can imagine that your particular pelvic tilt and dimensions might still result in excessive weight/pressure on the perineum. You might then need to experiment with saddle tilt and different saddles.

Jon in Sweden wrote: ↑27 Aug 2022, 10:52am I'm entirely open to being wildly wrong though.

I am not you, and you have exceptional body dimensions, so there is every possibility that I am wrong in your case, even if what I suggest might apply to a lot of male riders.

NB Much of 531colin's fit guidance is distilled from the guidance of Steve Hogg on bike fitting. You might find it useful to read some of Steve Hogg's articles. Steve Hogg recommends SMP saddles, which typically have very large central cut outs, and it might be that one of those would suit you. (They are expensive - in the UK the importer, Dillglove, has a 'try before you buy' scheme.)

https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bi ... oad-bikes/

https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bi ... smp-seats/

https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bi ... bout-smps/

Jon in Sweden wrote: ↑27 Aug 2022, 11:32am ...........
I think you're probably right on the cast iron perineums! I have good posterior chain flexibility (can not only touch my toes but put my hands flat on the floor) but when hunkering down into a more aero position, it tends to come from pelvic tilt rather than back bending.

Very little pelvic tilt in your pictures.

The word "perineum" is often bandied about in cycling magazines, forums, etc.
As far as I know, the anatomical definition is "the area between the anus and the scrotum/vulva". I have never seen a width quoted.
Is that definition what folk are using here?

And one more thought.....You can't think your way to a comfortable riding position, you really have to try stuff.

531colin wrote: ↑27 Aug 2022, 1:48pm

Jon in Sweden wrote: ↑27 Aug 2022, 11:32am ...........
I think you're probably right on the cast iron perineums! I have good posterior chain flexibility (can not only touch my toes but put my hands flat on the floor) but when hunkering down into a more aero position, it tends to come from pelvic tilt rather than back bending.

Very little pelvic tilt in your pictures.

The word "perineum" is often bandied about in cycling magazines, forums, etc.
As far as I know, the anatomical definition is "the area between the anus and the scrotum/vulva". I have never seen a width quoted.
Is that definition what folk are using here?

And one more thought.....You can't think your way to a comfortable riding position, you really have to try stuff.

When I hunker down into a more aero position, then the pelvis tilts.

Fair point on the trying different positions.

Here is a video of me riding my other main road bike. I've done many more KM on this one than the Mercian.

https://youtu.be/7MPQJcA1nh8

And three photos. I left the top off as I felt that it was obstructing the visibility of my hips:

531colin wrote: ↑27 Aug 2022, 1:48pm ...
The word "perineum" is often bandied about in cycling magazines, forums, etc.
As far as I know, the anatomical definition is "the area between the anus and the scrotum/vulva". I have never seen a width quoted.
Is that definition what folk are using here?
...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perineum

... citing the lateral margins as the inferior rami of the pubis and ischial tuberosity, and the sacrotuberous ligament.

Jonathan

_DSC0829a by 531colin, on Flickr

Can you see why I'm still going to say ....."too small"

Looks a bit better in the video, to be fair

531colin wrote: ↑27 Aug 2022, 7:50pm _DSC0829a by 531colin, on Flickr

Can you see why I'm still going to say ....."too small"

Looks a bit better in the video, to be fair

I know, but what can you do if you're on a bit of a budget? In reality I need something like a 65cm frame, but they just don't exist anymore.

I just need a normal bike, put through a photocopier at 120%

I was pointed in the direction of this thread by @slowster, being rather tall myself, though a mere 192cm.

I'm lucky enough to have a custom build frame from Swallows, which features the longest top tube done on 953. I expect 531 has the same max length, a frame builder could advise I guess. On that bike I have an average length stem, not sure exactly what.

I also have a tandem, which has been far more tricky to get to fit. I had similar issues to you on that. I now have one of these stems:
Ergotech do a range of similar. I tried an adjustable one before buying a fixed (the adjustable ones have some play in use and are a PITA IMO).

I don't know what would work for you, but my best guess would be:

1. Saddle all the way back
2. A long and rising stem.
3. And longest top tube you can get (if a different bike is an option)

Good luck, and you're not alone!

roubaixtuesday wrote: ↑27 Aug 2022, 9:10pm I was pointed in the direction of this thread by @slowster, being rather tall myself, though a mere 192cm.

I'm lucky enough to have a custom build frame from Swallows, which features the longest top tube done on 953. I expect 531 has the same max length, a frame builder could advise I guess. On that bike I have an average length stem, not sure exactly what.

I also have a tandem, which has been far more tricky to get to fit. I had similar issues to you on that. I now have one of these stems:

20220827_210314.jpg

Ergotech do a range of similar. I tried an adjustable one before buying a fixed (the adjustable ones have some play in use and are a PITA IMO).

I don't know what would work for you, but my best guess would be:

1. Saddle all the way back
2. A long and rising stem.
3. And longest top tube you can get (if a different bike is an option)

Good luck, and you're not alone!

Thanks for your thoughts. I'd really like to get a tandem too, but extremely tricky for me at my height.

I've got some scope to play around with the stem position, so I'll look at that.

--------------------------------------------

I went out for an intentionally leisurely 68km this morning, running at about 10-12% slower than normal. I was on the Orbea, and it's night and day for comfort compared to the Mercian. I bought myself a pair of much better shorts yesterday, which I feel has made a big difference (keeps things in check and supported down there, which the others weren't) but the saddle (Prologo P.A.S, with perineal cutout) I think is the principle improvement. No issues with discomfort and no numbness whatsoever.

I am going to get both the Mercian and Orbea lined up and mirror the set up on the Orbea onto the Mercian. And then I think I'll order a few of the Prologo saddles, so it's the same on every bike.

Jon in Sweden wrote: ↑28 Aug 2022, 11:01am I am going to get both the Mercian and Orbea lined up and mirror the set up on the Orbea onto the Mercian. And then I think I'll order a few of the Prologo saddles, so it's the same on every bike.

Those latest photographs on the Orbea look less cramped and more relaxed. I was going to ask if you had set up all your bikes up with the same saddle position relative to the bottom bracket (height AND setback behind bottom bracket), and the same bar height/reach.

I would recommend trying an SMP saddle before buying more of the Prologo saddles. I have not felt the need to try an SMP saddle myself, because I still find the traditional saddles I use to be adequately comfortable, but from the comments of some other riders on this forum and elsewhere who have them, and the comments of experts like Steve Hogg, it is the brand I would try first if I experienced discomfort with my current saddles, especially the sort of problems you are experiencing given that they have a larger central cut out than most other saddles of that type.

According to SMP's website there are a number of retailers in Sweden who offer a saddle test service. I imagine it might only be possible to try just a very limited selection of SMP's range, but I would hope that even that would give you a useful comparison point. If it was significantly better than the Prologo, you could use the SMP test saddle as a reference point to identify which out of the range of SMP saddles would likely be the best for you.

https://www.sellesmp.com/en/store-locator*

https://www.sellesmp.com/eu_en/saddleapp

https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bi ... bout-smps/

* The map search function is a bit hit and miss, but I found a number of 'test centre' retailers in Sweden, including one as far north as Östersund.

roubaixtuesday wrote: ↑27 Aug 2022, 9:10pm I was pointed in the direction of this thread by @slowster, being rather tall myself, though a mere 192cm.

I'm lucky enough to have a custom build frame from Swallows, which features the longest top tube done on 953. I expect 531 has the same max length, a frame builder could advise I guess. On that bike I have an average length stem, not sure exactly what.

I also have a tandem, which has been far more tricky to get to fit. I had similar issues to you on that. I now have one of these stems:

20220827_210314.jpg

Ergotech do a range of similar. I tried an adjustable one before buying a fixed (the adjustable ones have some play in use and are a PITA IMO).

I don't know what would work for you, but my best guess would be:

1. Saddle all the way back
2. A long and rising stem.
3. And longest top tube you can get (if a different bike is an option)

Good luck, and you're not alone!

Current 953 tube listing is rather disappointing, there are only 2 top tubes listed, both 28.6mm diameter, length 625 or 635mm, with different wall gauges. Down tubes similarly, only 34.9mm diameter, both 680mm long, different wall gauges.https://www.torchandfile.com/953-MAR-AG ... c_131.html....so a frame for a 5' rider uses the same diameter tubes as a frame for a 6' 4" rider?
The 2016 listing has many more tubes, including 31.75mm diameter 650mm long with various butting profiles and wall gauges..... I would be happy to specify something like that as top tube for a really big frame .... and 36.4mm diameter tubing for down tubes for big frames, as well as exotica like tapered and bi-oval tubes.

Thats some stem on the tandem.
I am quite concerned at the amount of leverage exerted on the quill/ahead adapter. Failure is hopefully unlikely, but the consequences of failure don't bear thinking about.
I have been having a conversation here about tandem headsets viewtopic.php?t=152743.... hopefully the problem is solved with my strange headset designed for forks with damaged threads.
I guess your tandem has inch and eighth threaded headset?
If that was mine, I would be exploring possibilities.....if current inch and eighth threadless headsets will fit the frame, I would be looking at going threadless with a very long steerer; a framebuilder could replace the existing steerer, or it could be extended like this...

005 by 531colin, on Flickr

Thats an inch steerer I extended. Its sleeved internally using a bit of quill stem, with silver solder run in holes drilled at intervals..

003 by 531colin, on Flickr

Inch and eighth steerer can be extended similarly by sleeving internally with inch steerer which fits closely enough to be silver soldered; the join needs to be away from where the headset will go.
Its a lot of messing about, but you won't break a solid inch and eighth steerer, and it gives you much more choice in stems.

I wouldn't put a stem like your tandem stem on a carbon steerer.

Jon in Sweden wrote: ↑27 Aug 2022, 8:41pm

531colin wrote: ↑27 Aug 2022, 7:50pm ..........

Can you see why I'm still going to say ....."too small"

Looks a bit better in the video, to be fair

I know, but what can you do if you're on a bit of a budget? In reality I need something like a 65cm frame, but they just don't exist anymore.

I just need a normal bike, put through a photocopier at 120%

You don't want to hear this, but I would have thought one expensive made-to-measure endurance road / gravel type bike which fits you perfectly, maybe with a couple of pairs of wheels, would be better than a couple of not cheap bikes which don't properly fit.