Lightweight electric bike

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc. that are legal in the UK
Jdsk
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Re: Lightweight electric bike

Post by Jdsk »

estarli:
https://www.estarli.co.uk

Jonathan
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Cugel
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Re: Lightweight electric bike

Post by Cugel »

richtea99 wrote: 28 Aug 2022, 11:21pm
A 2020 Gain (i.e. the previous incarnation with external cabling) is quite close to a touring bike - I replaced a Mercian with it. :shock:
The addtional weight over a steel audax tourer is offset by the flexibility/ease it offers when climbing hills. It's a compromise I'm very happy with after 2 years of use.

An Orbea Vibe is close to a Gain if you want flat bars, but as peterb says, probably closer to 16Kg once you've loaded it up with the extras:
https://www.orbea.com/gb-en/ebikes/urban/vibe/cat/

A Boardman HYB 8.9e will probably get you better climbing ability on steep Cornish hills, but that's another extra Kg on top of the Vibe/Gain:
https://www.boardmanbikes.com/gb_en/pro ... -8.9e.html

Neither will get you 50 miles unless you limit the assistance to just hill climbing / strong winds. I get around 70-80 miles doing that.

To get below 15Kg with guards, rack, bell, pump, etc, you'll need to go carbon, and pay through the nose to lose the extra Kg or two.
Good observations.

The bicycle market doesn't contain many e-bikes that are motorised equivalents of traditional touring bikes like the Dawes Galaxy and the many Spa tourers. The German tradition of even heftier sit-up-and-beg bikes with straight bars and many built-in additions such as panniers, lights, dynamos et al seems to have transitioned into touring e-bike production. Consider the touring bikes offered on this website, for example:

https://www.bikester.co.uk/bikes/electr ... ing-bikes/

I could only find one e-bike made in the Galaxy-style tradition:

https://www.bergamont.com/gb/en/product ... -rd-expert

And no one seems to have one for sale anywhere in Blighty.

Some gravel e-bikes can be converted to touring as they come with the frame mounting points for guards and racks. But most don't; and those that do often have rack fittings only for a rear rack, nothing on the fork. There are some with multiple fittings but they tend to be upmarket, aluminium-framed and rather expensive for what they are.

I looked for ages but eventually settled on the Vitus e-substance mentioned above in this thread because it was one of the few well-priced and well-reviewed carbon framed e-bikes that could be made into an e-bike equivalent of a touring, audax, winter and gravel bike. (You can even strip it down and make it a more racy summer bike).

************
Hub motored bikes seem ill-suited for conversion into tourers, even if they have the mounting points for guards and racks. Tourers carry weight and will be ridden more slowly than the racy bikes sporting rear hub motors from the likes of Orbea and Ribble. Hub motors are not very efficient at slow speeds, or so I read; and are rather underpowered compared to even a lightweight mid-motor like the Fazua. Many seem to suggest that they don't do that well with loads and uphill at slower speeds.

Personally, if I was wanting an e-bike for serious touring (I don't) I'd buy a-one of those German heavyweights with a powerful Bosch motor and a geet big high capacity battery. 28+ kg but built for loads and lots of motor-input with plenty of battery energy. Their main disadvantage seems to be a lack of drop bars and difficulty carrying them up stairs or otherwise manhandling them because of their heft, especially when loaded with touring gear.

*************

The Fazua-equipped Vitus e-substance bike I bought and recommended to the OP is always going to be 10-12kg lighter than one of the German-style tourers, whether they're both loaded with touring stuff or not. If the bike is to perform other duties besides being a tough tourer, the lighter weight items seem a better choice. The Fazua-equipped versions, especially, can be transformed to be many other kinds of bike besides a dedicated tourer - even a motorless normal bike 3kg lighter than with the motor in. The 28kg Big Boschers will always be nothing but that.

Cugel
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peterb
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Re: Lightweight electric bike

Post by peterb »

I think it depends just how much assistance the OP requires. I have 2 Mahle x35 hub motored bikes - an early alloy Tiagra Orbea Gain, and a full carbon Ribble SLe. The Gain has fittings for mudguards and rack, and I use it mostly in wet conditions. The SLe could have mudguards fitted but I keep it as light as possible and it's the go-to bike for club rides when the speed is over the 15.5 mph cut-off for much of the time. As I've posted before I now ride e-bikes because I have vascular problems and the blood supply to my leg muscles is severely restricted. I wanted to carry on cycling much in the manner I did before the problem arose, and I find these bikes work for me. I'm almost 75, not as strong as I used to be and find even the 16 kg Gain is hard work to lift into my car. The Ribble is easier of course as it is in the region of 13 kg. Even so, when riding above the cut-off one is propelling what is in reality a heavy bike, compared with the un-assisted Rose Xeon I was used to riding, which weighed around 8.5 kg all in. I didn't want a free lunch, assistance wise, and I wanted the experience of riding an e-bike to be as close as possible to that of non assisted. The steepest hills are still hard work, but I want my legs to put in a good percentage of that work - it's good for them. The hard part for me is keeping the bike rolling at 17- 18 mph on the flat!
That said, I think Cugel's suggestion of the Vitus is a good one, if they have your size left of course. Of course ideally it would be best for the OP to ride Fazua and Mahle equipped bikes, and compare the two systems, but I'm not sure how possible that might be currently.
dodger1
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Re: Lightweight electric bike

Post by dodger1 »

I'm just a little younger than peterb, but finding the going a bit harder than it used to be. Don't know if that's down simply to age or post-COVID, but I want to keep on touring and to keep on enjoying it, so an e-bike is on the cards.
My brother has a heavy e-bike but rides alongside me with much less effort, just on the eco setting. He reckons on 60 miles for a full charge. Can't remember the make, although it's about 5 years old.
I don't want a heavy bike to lug on and off of trains and onto my roof rack, so I'm keen to find something at around the same weight as my current bike, which is about 15Kg, including guards, pannier, lights.
I ditched my computer, after realising I was getting hung up on maintaining a set average speed, so I'm easy about pace. Here in Cornwall I generally average 10mph, but more in flatter areas.
As cugel says, finding an "ordinary" touring ebike is not easy, hence the request for input from those who have one.
There's an ebike centre near Falmouth so I guess the best first step is to simply try a few. Maybe a heavier bike will suit. I'll wait to be convinced!
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Audax67
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Re: Lightweight electric bike

Post by Audax67 »

Dunno if it's entirely in the spirit of this forum, but I've noticed that German kit seems to cut off motor assistance at an anally-precise 25 kph. When I bought my French hub motor the tech in the shop set the speed limit to 25 kph + 10%, that being the legal tolerance, so I can tool along happily at 27-28 kph. I've also spoken to a bloke on a Nakamura (Intersport) bike who said his went up to 27 kph.
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hemo
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Re: Lightweight electric bike

Post by hemo »

My tdzs2 cuts at 17.2 or 17.3mph according to the speed readout, though the tyre circumfernece may not be 100%.
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531colin
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Re: Lightweight electric bike

Post by 531colin »

UpWrong
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Re: Lightweight electric bike

Post by UpWrong »

It's frustrating that most flat-bar eBike comes with heavy suspension forks, wide rimmed wheels and wide tyres making for a heavy machine. A decent motor, battery, wiring and control unit is perhaps 6 Kg so an eBike roadster machine should come in at under 20Kg. And yet most are 25-28Kg.
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Cugel
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Re: Lightweight electric bike

Post by Cugel »

UpWrong wrote: 31 Aug 2022, 7:44am It's frustrating that most flat-bar eBike comes with heavy suspension forks, wide rimmed wheels and wide tyres making for a heavy machine. A decent motor, battery, wiring and control unit is perhaps 6 Kg so an eBike roadster machine should come in at under 20Kg. And yet most are 25-28Kg.
An interesting observation.

On the one hand, it can be seen that a very serviceable and capable e-bike can be built to a weight of around 15-16kg. We have two in our house and another of just 13kg. The 15kg models are robust enough to take panniers, mudguards and all the other things that make a first rate utility bike of many roles. The 13kg model (10kg with the motor and battery removed) is just as rapid & racy as the best non-motorised racy bikes.

The trick is to balance motor power output with the rest of the bike's design. Motors with a lower maximum wattage and torque don't need such beefy frames to take the momentary bursts of 800 watts or 80+ Nm from the likes of a Bosch motor. Personally I see Fazua-equipped bikes as the current peak of such designs, being more powerful than the Mahle hub motor bikes (which can also be a couple of kilos lighter, of course) but far less stressful on a frame than the Bosch-powered beasts.

**************

On the other hand, the more powerful and robust e-bikes built like the proverbial brick SHs, including those cargo bikes able to transport two small children, a goat and the week's shopping .... well, they are probably a good substitute for a car. They might evolve even further in that direction to take weather-shielding on board. (Which will make them even heavier).

The point with this model is that it's still a tiny fraction of the weight of a car. We don't worry about the weight of the car since we're not in the habit of carrying it upstairs or loading it on to a rack at the back of a bus. The infrastructure to deal with cars being parked et al has evolved into a great scope of methods. There's no reason that parking for heavy e-bikes can't evolve in a similar way, if and when they begin to replace cars in significant numbers.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -transport

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531colin
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Re: Lightweight electric bike

Post by 531colin »

UpWrong wrote: 31 Aug 2022, 7:44am It's frustrating that most flat-bar eBike comes with heavy suspension forks, wide rimmed wheels and wide tyres making for a heavy machine. A decent motor, battery, wiring and control unit is perhaps 6 Kg so an eBike roadster machine should come in at under 20Kg. And yet most are 25-28Kg.
Boardman do one https://www.boardmanbikes.com/gb_en/pro ... #technical claimed weight 15.5 kilos "bare" with the Fazua system....thread on here somewhere.

And theres Cairn....I hadn't heard of them until they showed up in an E mail from CUK..https://www.cairncycles.com/collections ... t-bar-2021 theirs has Shimano steps and a claimed weight of 17.8 kilos bare.

The Boardman appears to be cheaper and lighter; probably with less power, but that would suit somebody who just wants a bit of help, rather than a cut-price motorbike.
Boardman do separate flat bar and drop bar bikes, the drop bar one is (almost inevitably) called an "Adventure" bike. The flat bar bike has steeper head angle and less trail than the drop bar bike, which I find an interesting choice; I would expect a more upright position on the flat bar bike, therefore less weight on the front wheel and with less trail a really light feel to the steering. I think the Cairn uses the same frame for both handlebar styles, but my concentration is flagging.....
Janwal
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Re: Lightweight electric bike

Post by Janwal »

Check out the Cannondale Neo quick. About 16kg, Mahle rear hub motor. Love mine and light enough to be ridden for big chunks of a ride without having to use the motor.
UpWrong
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Re: Lightweight electric bike

Post by UpWrong »

The battery isn't as big as I'd like but the Juicy Malva keeps the weight under 20kg:
https://www.juicybike.com/product/our-e ... r7749.html
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Cowsham
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Re: Lightweight electric bike

Post by Cowsham »

Seems like you need a mid drive with carbon frame to get the weight down that low.
My 3 concerns with that would be

1. Can the motor be replaced and at what cost?

2. Will the motor be always available or is it specific to that bike ie could it be obsolete in a few years and render the bike scrap?

I say this because my rear hub bike can be replaced very easily in fact I converted the bike in under an hour apart from fitting the brake sensors ( which took a bit of time to setup on the hydraulic levers -- probably another hour )

3. Is the light frame strong enough for touring / shopping etc if you're intending to fit panniers?

I'm a cheap skate though my electric bike has cost me £600 exactly complete with mudguards, panniers, hydraulic brake sensors and 250w motor kit with 13.5ah battery ( range about 60miles on lowest setting 35 on highest )

The second hand straight bar carrera has no suspension ( but 2" tyres help with grip and comfort ) which keeps the weight down but haven't weighed it since the conversion. ( bound to be about 20kg + since the original bike was about 13kg ) I'm sure I could manage to get it on a train fully loaded but I'm still only 60 so a fair bit younger than Peter.
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mattsccm
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Re: Lightweight electric bike

Post by mattsccm »

You are wasting your time looing for point 2 above. Completely unpredictable surely. Suppose it depends on what time scale you consider important.
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Cugel
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Re: Lightweight electric bike

Post by Cugel »

mattsccm wrote: 11 Sep 2022, 8:54am You are wasting your time looing for point 2 above. Completely unpredictable surely. Suppose it depends on what time scale you consider important.
Point 2 is generally an issue about many other aspects of a bicycle besides any electric motor parts it may have. The situation with gearing, for example, is a bit of a minefield, with various things becoming unobtainable far sooner than they used to do, as "standards" change.

As with other manufacturers, one can attempt a judgement of that manufacturer's likelihood of keeping spare parts available. I would be less worried by manufactured parts from Bosch or Fazua, for example, than I would be about many of the less well established producers of e-bike parts.

**********
In addition, some e-bike designs are much less susceptible to obsolescence if the e-motor parts become unavailable. A hub-motored e-bike is often very near in design, weight and functionality to a non e-bike. Changing the rear wheel to a non-motor wheel is enough to make it into a rideable ordinary bicycle. A Fazua bike takes a blank motor/battery compartment and is rideable without the motor - I ride mine like that much of the time now. Only the gearbox is vulnerable to parts-scarcity and that's built with a life expectancy of 150,000km according to Fazua.

Cugel
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