Are we all Trussed up...

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roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5815
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Jdsk wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 6:43pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 6:40pm Anyone who wishes to consider what True Democracy is need look no further than Russia.

Russia has a democratic constitution, and acpresident who, it's generally accepted, has, at least until very recently, had popular support.

So, we should regard Russia as a True Democracy?

Of course not.

Because True Democracy depends on the integrity and behaviour of people within the system - the culture of the nation - as well as the written rules.

Anyone complacent about how True our Democracy is could reflect on what the winners of the One Truly Democratic Event have done to that culture in the UK. They might also reflect on the run up to the One True Event.
Russia is now the textbook example of there being a lot more to democracy than being allowed to vote occasionally.

Jonathan
Indeed, that was my point. Though I would argue that Iraq is the textbook example - where a notional democracy was imposed.

It's worth thinking about how that was different to Germany or Japan post WW2.
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by jois »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 6:40pm Anyone who wishes to consider what True Democracy is need look no further than Russia.

Russia has a democratic constitution, and acpresident who, it's generally accepted, has, at least until very recently, had popular support.

So, we should regard Russia as a True Democracy?

Of course not.

Because True Democracy depends on the integrity and behaviour of people within the system - the culture of the nation - as well as the written rules.

Anyone complacent about how True our Democracy is could reflect on what the winners of the One Truly Democratic Event have done to that culture in the UK. They might also reflect on the run up to the One True Event.
Democracy's are more than capable of being dispictable and still count as being democratic. Is invading ukrain worse than invading Iraq? Or A bombing civilians and hundreds more examples. The Americans have their justifications the Russians have theirs. Neither hold up to much examination
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Jdsk »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 6:48pm
Jdsk wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 6:43pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 6:40pm Anyone who wishes to consider what True Democracy is need look no further than Russia.

Russia has a democratic constitution, and acpresident who, it's generally accepted, has, at least until very recently, had popular support.

So, we should regard Russia as a True Democracy?

Of course not.

Because True Democracy depends on the integrity and behaviour of people within the system - the culture of the nation - as well as the written rules.

Anyone complacent about how True our Democracy is could reflect on what the winners of the One Truly Democratic Event have done to that culture in the UK. They might also reflect on the run up to the One True Event.
Russia is now the textbook example of there being a lot more to democracy than being allowed to vote occasionally.
Indeed, that was my point. Though I would argue that Iraq is the textbook example - where a notional democracy was imposed.

It's worth thinking about how that was different to Germany or Japan post WW2.
Yes, I was agreeing! : - )

Yes, the postwar restructuring provides a good contrast.

As does South Korea's development.

... which is more important... voting, enforceable personal rights, enforceable property rights, rule of law... etc?

Jonathan
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by reohn2 »

jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 6:03pm
reohn2 wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 5:59pm
jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 5:52pm We always "needed "migrants. They keep wages down and house prices up . And ramp up GDP. That's why they are so unsuccessful at stopping migration, they really only want to make a fuss and let it carry on
But it needn't be that way with a fairer society,one the Tories aren't really interested in!
Tony Blair was big on immigration for the same financial reasons and they lied about it as well
Where did I say they didn't?
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by jois »

reohn2 wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 6:55pm
jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 6:03pm
reohn2 wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 5:59pm

But it needn't be that way with a fairer society,one the Tories aren't really interested in!
Tony Blair was big on immigration for the same financial reasons and they lied about it as well
Where did I say they didn't?
You didn't I was moving the discussion on
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5815
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by roubaixtuesday »

jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 6:51pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 6:40pm Anyone who wishes to consider what True Democracy is need look no further than Russia.

Russia has a democratic constitution, and acpresident who, it's generally accepted, has, at least until very recently, had popular support.

So, we should regard Russia as a True Democracy?

Of course not.

Because True Democracy depends on the integrity and behaviour of people within the system - the culture of the nation - as well as the written rules.

Anyone complacent about how True our Democracy is could reflect on what the winners of the One Truly Democratic Event have done to that culture in the UK. They might also reflect on the run up to the One True Event.
Democracy's are more than capable of being dispictable and still count as being democratic. Is invading ukrain worse than invading Iraq? Or A bombing civilians and hundreds more examples. The Americans have their justifications the Russians have theirs. Neither hold up to much examination
My post was about what makes a country democratic, not about whether democracy improves the actions countries take.
roubaixtuesday
Posts: 5815
Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Jdsk wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 6:52pm
Yes, I was agreeing! : - )


Yes, the postwar restructuring provides a good contrast.

As does South Korea's development.

... which is more important... voting, enforceable personal rights, enforceable property rights, rule of law... etc?

Jonathan
Careful now. It'll never catch on.
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by reohn2 »

jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 6:45pm It has to be a question that fits on the ballet paper and gives equal chance to both sides

You can't ask do you want stay or leave and die a slow death through cold and starvation. That's a might biased

Stay or go from the European Union is both a fair description of the political nature of the Union and the choice in hand. I feel
It's not just what was on the ballet paper that just about swayed the EU referendum but the abject lies that were allowed to on in the lead up,£350million on the side of a bus,how the world would be beating a path to our door to do favourable deals with us,etc,etc,etc
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by jois »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 7:03pm
jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 6:51pm
roubaixtuesday wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 6:40pm Anyone who wishes to consider what True Democracy is need look no further than Russia.

Russia has a democratic constitution, and acpresident who, it's generally accepted, has, at least until very recently, had popular support.

So, we should regard Russia as a True Democracy?

Of course not.

Because True Democracy depends on the integrity and behaviour of people within the system - the culture of the nation - as well as the written rules.

Anyone complacent about how True our Democracy is could reflect on what the winners of the One Truly Democratic Event have done to that culture in the UK. They might also reflect on the run up to the One True Event.
Democracy's are more than capable of being dispictable and still count as being democratic. Is invading ukrain worse than invading Iraq? Or A bombing civilians and hundreds more examples. The Americans have their justifications the Russians have theirs. Neither hold up to much examination
My post was about what makes a country democratic, not about whether democracy improves the actions countries take.
I would have though A bombing civilians is a fair indication of the integrity and behaviour of those in the system.

So which examples of democracy meet your expectations of integrity and good behaviour as these it seems make it a true democracy in your view
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by reohn2 »

jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 6:57pm
reohn2 wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 6:55pm
jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 6:03pm

Tony Blair was big on immigration for the same financial reasons and they lied about it as well
Where did I say they didn't?
You didn't I was moving the discussion on
To what?
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by jois »

reohn2 wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 7:10pm
jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 6:45pm It has to be a question that fits on the ballet paper and gives equal chance to both sides

You can't ask do you want stay or leave and die a slow death through cold and starvation. That's a might biased

Stay or go from the European Union is both a fair description of the political nature of the Union and the choice in hand. I feel
It's not just what was on the ballet paper that just about swayed the EU referendum but the abject lies that were allowed to on in the lead up,£350million on the side of a bus,how the world would be beating a path to our door to do favourable deals with us,etc,etc,etc
I was comparing and contrasting the truthness of the ballet paper in 75 and in the last one.

Politicians lie is hardly news
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by jois »

reohn2 wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 7:13pm
jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 6:57pm
reohn2 wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 6:55pm
Where did I say they didn't?
You didn't I was moving the discussion on
To what?
To Tony Blair obviously
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by reohn2 »

jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 7:15pm
reohn2 wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 7:13pm
jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 6:57pm

You didn't I was moving the discussion on
To what?
To Tony Blair obviously
I'd no truck with Blair,he blew it with lies about Iraq's WMDs.
The past 12 years are far enough back for me.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Psamathe
Posts: 17650
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Psamathe »

Just been chatting with a friend who works in the City and apparently Traders are referring to Truss as “Daggers” - as in Dagenham, 2 stops past Barking…

Ian
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by jois »

reohn2 wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 7:18pm
jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 7:15pm
reohn2 wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 7:13pm
To what?
To Tony Blair obviously
I'd no truck with Blair,he blew it with lies about Iraq's WMDs.
The past 12 years are far enough back for me.
Ok il leave Tony alone
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