Are we all Trussed up...

[jois]

But they've got much lower tax bills, they're happy. Doesn't bother them if the rest of us have to pay for it.

Ian

That's running with the assumption they all could classed as well off. Which may be true or may not. Maybe someone knows !

They only get to choose from a short list of two, one was unlikely to win as he was seen holding the knife that stabbed Boris. They really just wanted Boris back to the main part.

And Liz was the only non assassin choice they had. I suspect who ever wasn't rishi in the final run off would have won. So it's all really his fault

Nope, it's all their fault. Boris had to go regardless of Rishi's resignation, and Javid went at the same time. I find it interesting that Javid is not in the new cabinet even though he backed Truss after pulling out.

Lt is a remarkable politician, she doesn't seem to care at all about her popularity and seems to tell the truth more often than not. That doesn't of course make her a good PM just very unusual

[roubaixtuesday]

That's running with the assumption they all could classed as well off. Which may be true or may not. Maybe someone knows !

They only get to choose from a short list of two, one was unlikely to win as he was seen holding the knife that stabbed Boris. They really just wanted Boris back to the main part.

And Liz was the only non assassin choice they had. I suspect who ever wasn't rishi in the final run off would have won. So it's all really his fault

Nope, it's all their fault. Boris had to go regardless of Rishi's resignation, and Javid went at the same time. I find it interesting that Javid is not in the new cabinet even though he backed Truss after pulling out.

Boris had to go because of rishi resigning. That you think he should have gone anyway or he may have gone later doesn't change that fact.

60 ministers resigned, not just Sunak. Prime ministers, Johnson included, have survived chancellors resignations before.

Johnson went because nobody was prepared to lie for him any more, which in turn was at least partly because the public turned against him over party gate.

[Biospace]

what can they do?
U turn, or emergency significant rate rise, or emergency budget to slash spending.

I think that would mean Kwarteng going immediately. Truus and Kwarteng are good friends (apparently are neighbours). Plus what they are doing was part of Truss' pitch to the Conservative Party (who rejected Sunak as he said it was daft ...), even the name for it "Trussonomics" reflects on her. She's lose all credibility if they did a U-turn.

I agree with you they urgently need to do something but they've dug themselves a very deep hole and I can't see a way out for them if they want to maintain any credibility (and I suspect their own egos and credibility are more important to them than the UK economy/population/etc.)

Ian

I don't see much which would restore credibility. Even a GE would further uncertainty in world markets, we're already looking unstable for having had four leaders in not many more years. Replacing Kwarteng with Sunak may open more concerns than it would quell, were it possible, which it likely isn't. Truss is a strange creature, I struggle to understand her thinking but as there's no agreed solution for exiting stagflation, perhaps she was influenced by some genius economics lecturers whilst at Oxford?

We're in a very awkward position, approaching that of the mid-late 1970s, possibly worse with the house price ponzi scheme leaving so many with the worry of whether or not they will lose the roof over their heads as interest rates rise and rise. I'm not un-persuadable that the economy is being crashed deliberately. There have been very odd things happening since the crash a decade and a half ago, which only increased once Covid had appeared.

Stagflation is the ultimate economic evil. Maybe all those forty or whatever billions which many say were wasted on "Track and Trace" was just the Chinese encouraging us to put in place the scaffolding for a full social credit system state, which will enable them more easily to run us once we're sufficiently ruined to go cap in hand

[jois]

Nope, it's all their fault. Boris had to go regardless of Rishi's resignation, and Javid went at the same time. I find it interesting that Javid is not in the new cabinet even though he backed Truss after pulling out.

Boris had to go because of rishi resigning. That you think he should have gone anyway or he may have gone later doesn't change that fact.

60 ministers resigned, not just Sunak. Prime ministers, Johnson included, have survived chancellors resignations before.

Johnson went because nobody was prepared to lie for him any more, which in turn was at least partly because the public turned against him over party gate.

Yes they have, but he lead the charge of ministers resigning he may even have organised it.

Non of them would have resigned a cushy job on principal, or they would have done so the week or the month before.

They are truly only in the most cases interested in keeping ministerial jobs and getting re elected. If they can do that they are quite happy no matter who is incharge.

[roubaixtuesday]

Boris had to go because of rishi resigning. That you think he should have gone anyway or he may have gone later doesn't change that fact.

60 ministers resigned, not just Sunak. Prime ministers, Johnson included, have survived chancellors resignations before.

Johnson went because nobody was prepared to lie for him any more, which in turn was at least partly because the public turned against him over party gate.

Yes they have, but he lead the charge of ministers resigning he may even have organised it.

Non of them would have resigned a cushy job on principal, or they would have done so the week or the month before.

They are truly only in the most cases interested in keeping ministerial jobs and getting re elected. If they can do that they are quite happy no matter who is incharge.

The number resigning was unprecedented.

The idea that Johnson's position was safe but for Sunak is for the birds. His incontinent dishonesty is what did for him, both with public and his own ministers, not some plot.

[jois]

what can they do?
U turn, or emergency significant rate rise, or emergency budget to slash spending.

I think that would mean Kwarteng going immediately. Truus and Kwarteng are good friends (apparently are neighbours). Plus what they are doing was part of Truss' pitch to the Conservative Party (who rejected Sunak as he said it was daft ...), even the name for it "Trussonomics" reflects on her. She's lose all credibility if they did a U-turn.

I agree with you they urgently need to do something but they've dug themselves a very deep hole and I can't see a way out for them if they want to maintain any credibility (and I suspect their own egos and credibility are more important to them than the UK economy/population/etc.)

Ian

I don't see much which would restore credibility. Even a GE would further uncertainty in world markets, we're already looking unstable for having had four leaders in not many more years. Replacing Kwarteng with Sunak may open more concerns than it would quell, were it possible, which it likely isn't. Truss is a strange creature, I struggle to understand her thinking but as there's no agreed solution for exiting stagflation, perhaps she was influenced by some genius economics lecturers whilst at Oxford?

We're in a very awkward position, approaching that of the mid-late 1970s, possibly worse with the house price ponzi scheme leaving so many with the worry of whether or not they will lose the roof over their heads as interest rates rise and rise. I'm not un-persuadable that the economy is being crashed deliberately. There have been very odd things happening since the crash a decade and a half ago, which only increased once Covid had appeared.

Stagflation is the ultimate economic evil. Maybe all those forty or whatever billions which many say were wasted on "Track and Trace" was just the Chinese encouraging us to put in place the scaffolding for a full social credit system state, which will enable them more easily to run us once we're sufficiently ruined to go cap in hand

By who, the money markets are not a forum for vetting countries fiscal policy. They are a for profit arrangement,If they feel they can make money by short selling the pound and forcing intest rates up they will do so. It's happened before several times. Is that deliberately crashing the economy, yes it is

[roubaixtuesday]

I think that would mean Kwarteng going immediately. Truus and Kwarteng are good friends (apparently are neighbours). Plus what they are doing was part of Truss' pitch to the Conservative Party (who rejected Sunak as he said it was daft ...), even the name for it "Trussonomics" reflects on her. She's lose all credibility if they did a U-turn.

I agree with you they urgently need to do something but they've dug themselves a very deep hole and I can't see a way out for them if they want to maintain any credibility (and I suspect their own egos and credibility are more important to them than the UK economy/population/etc.)

Ian

I don't see much which would restore credibility. Even a GE would further uncertainty in world markets, we're already looking unstable for having had four leaders in not many more years. Replacing Kwarteng with Sunak may open more concerns than it would quell, were it possible, which it likely isn't. Truss is a strange creature, I struggle to understand her thinking but as there's no agreed solution for exiting stagflation, perhaps she was influenced by some genius economics lecturers whilst at Oxford?

We're in a very awkward position, approaching that of the mid-late 1970s, possibly worse with the house price ponzi scheme leaving so many with the worry of whether or not they will lose the roof over their heads as interest rates rise and rise. I'm not un-persuadable that the economy is being crashed deliberately. There have been very odd things happening since the crash a decade and a half ago, which only increased once Covid had appeared.

Stagflation is the ultimate economic evil. Maybe all those forty or whatever billions which many say were wasted on "Track and Trace" was just the Chinese encouraging us to put in place the scaffolding for a full social credit system state, which will enable them more easily to run us once we're sufficiently ruined to go cap in hand

By who, the money markets are not a forum for vetting countries fiscal policy. They are a for profit arrangement,If they feel they can make money by short selling the pound and forcing intest rates up they will do so. It's happened before several times. Is that deliberately crashing the economy, yes it is

Yes, obviously the markets are engaged in a plot to deliberately crash the economy.

This is magical thinking - as per Gauke below "a fantasy world and a danger to the country"

[reohn2]

Truss appears to be Thatcher with the brain removed

[UpWrong]

That's running with the assumption they all could classed as well off. Which may be true or may not. Maybe someone knows !

They only get to choose from a short list of two, one was unlikely to win as he was seen holding the knife that stabbed Boris. They really just wanted Boris back to the main part.

And Liz was the only non assassin choice they had. I suspect who ever wasn't rishi in the final run off would have won. So it's all really his fault

Nope, it's all their fault. Boris had to go regardless of Rishi's resignation, and Javid went at the same time. I find it interesting that Javid is not in the new cabinet even though he backed Truss after pulling out.

Boris had to go because of rishi resigning. That you think he should have gone anyway or he may have gone later doesn't change that fact.

Supposition, not fact. And it just proves my earlier point that it shouldn't have been up to them anyway siince they are not our representatives in any sense.

[Biospace]

I don't see much which would restore credibility. Even a GE would further uncertainty in world markets, we're already looking unstable for having had four leaders in not many more years. Replacing Kwarteng with Sunak may open more concerns than it would quell, were it possible, which it likely isn't. Truss is a strange creature, I struggle to understand her thinking but as there's no agreed solution for exiting stagflation, perhaps she was influenced by some genius economics lecturers whilst at Oxford?

We're in a very awkward position, approaching that of the mid-late 1970s, possibly worse with the house price ponzi scheme leaving so many with the worry of whether or not they will lose the roof over their heads as interest rates rise and rise. I'm not un-persuadable that the economy is being crashed deliberately. There have been very odd things happening........

By who, the money markets are not a forum for vetting countries fiscal policy. They are a for profit arrangement,If they feel they can make money by short selling the pound and forcing intest rates up they will do so. It's happened before several times. Is that deliberately crashing the economy, yes it is

I don't know. But what I do know is that macroeconomic policy has been managed in a way even a 1st year economics student would understand to be near suicidal. QE on a massive scale in the crash which went to the banks, further overheating the UK housing market. The economy has been on steroids ever since, imo.

Then another massive dose of QE through furlough and other payouts during 2020 and 2021. Mix in restrictions on the supply side of both goods and labour with stagnated domestic production, the inflation was predicted well in advance yet once it arrrived, nothing was done for months. Given the crippling effects of inflation, I find that really strange.

[jois]

I don't see much which would restore credibility. Even a GE would further uncertainty in world markets, we're already looking unstable for having had four leaders in not many more years. Replacing Kwarteng with Sunak may open more concerns than it would quell, were it possible, which it likely isn't. Truss is a strange creature, I struggle to understand her thinking but as there's no agreed solution for exiting stagflation, perhaps she was influenced by some genius economics lecturers whilst at Oxford?

We're in a very awkward position, approaching that of the mid-late 1970s, possibly worse with the house price ponzi scheme leaving so many with the worry of whether or not they will lose the roof over their heads as interest rates rise and rise. I'm not un-persuadable that the economy is being crashed deliberately. There have been very odd things happening since the crash a decade and a half ago, which only increased once Covid had appeared.

Stagflation is the ultimate economic evil. Maybe all those forty or whatever billions which many say were wasted on "Track and Trace" was just the Chinese encouraging us to put in place the scaffolding for a full social credit system state, which will enable them more easily to run us once we're sufficiently ruined to go cap in hand

By who, the money markets are not a forum for vetting countries fiscal policy. They are a for profit arrangement,If they feel they can make money by short selling the pound and forcing intest rates up they will do so. It's happened before several times. Is that deliberately crashing the economy, yes it is

Yes, obviously the markets are engaged in a plot to deliberately crash the economy.

This is magical thinking - as per Gauke below "a fantasy world and a danger to the country"

Is it a plot or a few people realising at much the same time that this is a good time to make money. They care nothing about your money issues just their own and it's happened before

[jois]

I don't see much which would restore credibility. Even a GE would further uncertainty in world markets, we're already looking unstable for having had four leaders in not many more years. Replacing Kwarteng with Sunak may open more concerns than it would quell, were it possible, which it likely isn't. Truss is a strange creature, I struggle to understand her thinking but as there's no agreed solution for exiting stagflation, perhaps she was influenced by some genius economics lecturers whilst at Oxford?

We're in a very awkward position, approaching that of the mid-late 1970s, possibly worse with the house price ponzi scheme leaving so many with the worry of whether or not they will lose the roof over their heads as interest rates rise and rise. I'm not un-persuadable that the economy is being crashed deliberately. There have been very odd things happening........

By who, the money markets are not a forum for vetting countries fiscal policy. They are a for profit arrangement,If they feel they can make money by short selling the pound and forcing intest rates up they will do so. It's happened before several times. Is that deliberately crashing the economy, yes it is

I don't know. But what I do know is that macroeconomic policy has been managed in a way even a 1st year economics student would understand to be near suicidal. QE on a massive scale in the crash which went to the banks, further overheating the UK housing market. The economy has been on steroids ever since, imo.

Then another massive dose of QE through furlough and other payouts during 2020 and 2021. Mix in restrictions on the supply side of both goods and labour with stagnated domestic production, the inflation was predicted well in advance yet once it arrrived, nothing was done for months. Given the crippling effects of inflation, I find that really strange.

Yes but both outside of the government's control to a large extent, a socialist paradises where nearly everyone sits at home on -80%pay for two years was never going to end well.

I'm not sure what else they could do to be honest, the options appear to be they worked and spread COVID or they starved

[roubaixtuesday]

By who, the money markets are not a forum for vetting countries fiscal policy. They are a for profit arrangement,If they feel they can make money by short selling the pound and forcing intest rates up they will do so. It's happened before several times. Is that deliberately crashing the economy, yes it is

Yes, obviously the markets are engaged in a plot to deliberately crash the economy.

This is magical thinking - as per Gauke below "a fantasy world and a danger to the country"

Is it a plot or a few people realising at much the same time that this is a good time to make money. They care nothing about your money issues just their own and it's happened before

You claimed they are "deliberately crashing the economy" as opposed to just making money.

I agree they are just making money, and not "deliberately crashing the economy"

The reason they are doing this is because of the deranged mini budget, which as per Gauke, was a fantasy, driven by delusional beliefs.

Blaming money markets for their reaction is like blaming flies for the buzzing noise in your lounge after choosing to defecate on the carpet.

[jois]

Yes, obviously the markets are engaged in a plot to deliberately crash the economy.

This is magical thinking - as per Gauke below "a fantasy world and a danger to the country"

Is it a plot or a few people realising at much the same time that this is a good time to make money. They care nothing about your money issues just their own and it's happened before

You claimed they are "deliberately crashing the economy" as opposed to just making money.

I agree they are just making money, and not "deliberately crashing the economy"

The reason they are doing this is because of the deranged mini budget, which as per Gauke, was a fantasy, driven by delusional beliefs.

Blaming money markets for their reaction is like blaming flies for the buzzing noise in your lounge after choosing to defecate on the carpet.

They are or at least could be considered to be making money by deliberately crashing the economy or if you prefere crashing the economy to deliberately make money. There are other variations but you will I'm sure catch my point

[Stevek76]

Most bigger market movements aren't deliberately trying to crash everything, they are done by fund managers (a good portion of which is pension funds) who have a responsibility to try and increase the value of those funds and certainly avoid decreasing their value. They are not going to keep investments therefore in assets that look risky and by abandoning british gilts and currency they acted very rationally.

There are a more limited number of higher risk funds that tend to be more about personal wealth as well as individual traders who will happily take advantage and try to exacerbate market turmoil but I think it's a push to suggest they crashed anything. The fault for that lies entirely with the government. The things that crashed would have crashed regardless of folk like Odey taking out short positions.

Truss is a strange creature, I struggle to understand her thinking but as there's no agreed solution for exiting stagflation, perhaps she was influenced by some genius economics lecturers whilst at Oxford?

She's mostly been influenced by a limited group of lobbyists that in the UK are largely based out of 55 tufton st in the form of opaquely funded think tanks like the institute of economic affairs, and relatively fringe economists that are largely wedded to the old discredited monetarist thinking (e.g. Patrick Minford). They are largely extreme libertarian minded, believe in supply side reform and deregulation as tools for growth, want huge cuts to public spending and don't mind interest rates going up. It is literally only this group that are even attempting to still defend this mini budget. The lobbyists I think are largely just in it for their own personal profit, the useful idiots and fringe economists they employ mostly just can't seem to see past their own ideology. Most were also strong advocates of brexit.

As for stagflation, there may be much uncertainty about dealing with it but there's not much uncertainty that what they're trying to do is definitely how you don't deal with it. What they're doing is also very bad for general quality of life, unless you're ultra rich.