Are we all Trussed up...

Use this board for general non-cycling-related chat, or to introduce yourself to the forum.
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by jois »

pete75 wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 4:41pm
jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 4:28pm

The referendum decision was rerun in the general election as was Boris vision of what it meant. That was the time for enough people to change their mind if they didn't like the outcome.

Yes it was, wasn't it - and over 50% of those who voted cast their votes for parties opposed to Brexit.
Indeed but we tend to get governments with less than 50% of the vote

But people disagree with the outcome of the referendum and then disagree with the out come of the election which voting system would you approve of, apart from one that gives the answer you want
Psamathe
Posts: 17647
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Psamathe »

jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 4:47pm
Psamathe wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 4:34pm
jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 4:28pm
There are a lot of Anecdotes of who voted for what and why and if they now change their mind.

The referendum decision was rerun in the general election as was Boris vision of what it meant. That was the time for enough people to change their mind if they didn't like the outcome.

I'm sure I don't have to explain the UK election voting system to you. That we vote for members of parliament not prime minister's and then ,that's up to, as then was, the queen to invite the leader of the largest party to be PM. Not that she had to choose Liz. Just that is rather the done thing
I was raising the question as to how democratic Ms Truss taking over as PM is, not wanting the UK electoral system explained to me. Just the same as explaining the Hong Kong electoral system does not make it democratic.

I do not accept that a General Election is a re-run of the Leave Referendum. General Elections encompass a lot of issues unrelated to Brexit, a lot of party loyalty issues, etc. It if far more complex than you suggest it being a "rerun".

Ian

All that's true.we have a constitutional monarchy, not strictly speaking a democracy. We don't get to pick our PM. The monarch does.
The only truly democratic thing we have done in about 50 years was the referendum

Well it was. Boris ran on a ticket of get Brexit done and picked up a lot of votes in the red wall. Boris was unusual clear about what get Brexit done meant. Clear for him I mean
Wasn't the offer of "levelling-up" also introduced around that election? Northers deprived areas being offered lots of Government development money - nothing to do with Brexit. Do you believe levelling-up played no part and it was Brexit re-run?

Ian
Jdsk
Posts: 24632
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Jdsk »

jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 4:47pmThe only truly democratic thing we have done in about 50 years was the referendum
Why is that singular? Was the 2016 referendum more "truly democratic" than any of the other referendums in the last 50 years?

Thanks

Jonathan
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by jois »

Jdsk wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 4:53pm
jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 4:47pmThe only truly democratic thing we have done in about 50 years was the referendum
Why is that singular? Was the 2016 referendum more "truly democratic" than any of the other referendums in the last 50 years?

Thanks

Jonathan
Yes I think it was
Jdsk
Posts: 24632
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Jdsk »

jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 4:58pm
Jdsk wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 4:53pm
jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 4:47pmThe only truly democratic thing we have done in about 50 years was the referendum
Why is that singular? Was the 2016 referendum more "truly democratic" than any of the other referendums in the last 50 years?
Yes I think it was
Thanks

Why?

Jonathan
Stevek76
Posts: 2085
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Stevek76 »

jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 3:12pm You do rather shotgun your replies and I haven't the typing speed to go into the macro economics of Keynesian theory. Yes I think what they are doing is along those lines , you disagree.
Well i don't really know what to say to that, if you're going to go around using your own definitions for things then that's going to make discussion on anything really quite tricky. Whatever truss/kwarteng are up to it is absolutely not keynesian.
Keynesian eccomins tends to eat it's self and give rise to inflation so I'm not trying to say it's a good idea if that is what they are doing.
That's a perception pushed by Adam Smith style and other free market economists that exploits the fact that politicians are reluctant to restrain economic booms. Keynesian and the mainstream economics that it turned into is perfectly clear that intervention in those is just as important.
But I'm fairly convinced that tax increases are not good at heading off recession
Tax increases are needed to keep inflation in check (tax literally takes money out of the economy), the spending part (on useful things, not tax cuts) is what heads off a recession. The only other controls are increase interest rates (technically independent, limited headroom without causing mortgage defaulting) or reduce spend (what exactly would be cut? The country is falling apart already)

Interestingly, one of the horses mouths (Kate Andrews of the IEA & Spectator) seems to be implying that increasing interest rates is part of the objective. Truss's economics is lead by Patrick Minford (definitely not keynesian!) who has long thought that they are too low. Going to be fun to see the reaction from mortgage owners when they push interest rates to 5%+ plus.
jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 2:58pm A low regulation economy spewing out poor quality goods to the world has been shown to be quite successful. It's not my first choice
Which? And by what measure of 'success'?

Re h&s i don't know when you last worked but the uk has been pretty decent in results, not just paperwork in recent years, especially if you look at areas like construction. I suspect that's declined a bit over the last decade or so
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by jois »

Jdsk wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 5:02pm
jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 4:58pm
Jdsk wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 4:53pm
Why is that singular? Was the 2016 referendum more "truly democratic" than any of the other referendums in the last 50 years?
Yes I think it was
Thanks

Why?

Jonathan
There have been few.im not going through every one

The Scottish independence referendums was about disbanding the Union whilst only allowing a small number of citizens of the Union to vote. The other 60million had to like it or lump it. That's not democratic in my book.

I think they missed a trick to be honest. I would have voted to throw them out
Stradageek
Posts: 1657
Joined: 17 Jan 2011, 1:07pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Stradageek »

jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 4:58pm
Jdsk wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 4:53pm
jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 4:47pmThe only truly democratic thing we have done in about 50 years was the referendum
Why is that singular? Was the 2016 referendum more "truly democratic" than any of the other referendums in the last 50 years?
Thanks
Jonathan
Yes I think it was
There was vast mis-information (e.g. the Red Bus) and the youngsters who predominantly voted remain were also the least represented (as they are far more likely to be mobile and therefore not registered to vote) - I could go on but Danny Dorling does it better in his book 'Rule Britannia'.
Jdsk
Posts: 24632
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Jdsk »

jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 5:09pm
Jdsk wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 5:02pm
jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 4:58pm
Yes I think it was
Thanks

Why?
There have been few.im not going through every one

The Scottish independence referendums was about disbanding the Union whilst only allowing a small number of citizens of the Union to vote. The other 60million had to like it or lump it. That's not democratic in my book.

I think they missed a trick to be honest. I would have voted to throw them out
Why was it more democratic than the other referendums in which voting was open across the United Kingdom?

Thanks

Jonathan
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by pete75 »

jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 4:52pm
pete75 wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 4:41pm
jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 4:28pm

The referendum decision was rerun in the general election as was Boris vision of what it meant. That was the time for enough people to change their mind if they didn't like the outcome.

Yes it was, wasn't it - and over 50% of those who voted cast their votes for parties opposed to Brexit.
Indeed but we tend to get governments with less than 50% of the vote

But people disagree with the outcome of the referendum and then disagree with the out come of the election which voting system would you approve of, apart from one that gives the answer you want
Yes we do get governments with less than 50% of the vote which disproves your previous point that the election result confirmed the referendum result when in fact it did the opposite.

Some form of PR which makes more votes count. In the 2019 GE the Conservatives got an MP for every 38,000 votes, Labour for every 50,000, Lib Dems for every 336,000 and the Greens for 866,000. This has to be wrong by any measure.
What we have now is like 8 friends going out. 3 want to go for a coffee in Costa, 2 for a pint in the Red Lion, 2 for a pint in the Nags and 2 for a pint in the Windmill. Under our voting system they all end up going for a coffee at Costa because it has a majority despite the fact more people want a beer. Under some form of PR they'd end up going to a pub where, incidentally, you can usually get coffee too.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Jdsk
Posts: 24632
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Jdsk »

pete75 wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 5:15pmSome form of PR which makes more votes count.
Yes, please.

Jonathan
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by pete75 »

jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 5:09pm
Jdsk wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 5:02pm
jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 4:58pm
Yes I think it was
Thanks

Why?

Jonathan
There have been few.im not going through every one

The Scottish independence referendums was about disbanding the Union whilst only allowing a small number of citizens of the Union to vote. The other 60million had to like it or lump it. That's not democratic in my book.

I think they missed a trick to be honest. I would have voted to throw them out
It was just what you describe so anything other than allowing the Scots to vote on the matter of their own independence would have been undemocratic.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
francovendee
Posts: 3148
Joined: 5 May 2009, 6:32am

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by francovendee »

jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 2:37pm
francovendee wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 2:08pm There have been many comments from Brexit supporting MPs that they were in favour of moving away from following EU standards. They don't have to but I suspect they will until they realize the costs in producing things to two different standards for the same product.
There are some standard around health and safety and health and safety management. That they have in their sights. This is the " red tape" they like to refere to.

I'm not in agreement with scrapping these. But that's not the same as effecting exports.

The EU won't like it as it may give us an advantage in the ,,"trade war"
It's early days but on food standards, electrical standards etc the temptation to go for our own standards may be on the cards.
There is talk of matching UK standards to the EU's but it's not a policy.
If it's only health and safety and safety management, then what was the talk of a bonfire of EU rules about?
I'm afraid the lure of additional profit if standards are lowered and must be tempting to some employers.
Jdsk
Posts: 24632
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by Jdsk »

"... former minister claims letters of no confidence already being submitted against the PM"
https://news.sky.com/story/labour-party ... eblog-body

And it's only Monday...

Jonathan
jois
Posts: 334
Joined: 22 Sep 2022, 12:29pm

Re: Are we all Trussed up...

Post by jois »

pete75 wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 5:15pm
jois wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 4:52pm
pete75 wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 4:41pm
Yes it was, wasn't it - and over 50% of those who voted cast their votes for parties opposed to Brexit.
Indeed but we tend to get governments with less than 50% of the vote

But people disagree with the outcome of the referendum and then disagree with the out come of the election which voting system would you approve of, apart from one that gives the answer you want
Yes we do get governments with less than 50% of the vote which disproves your previous point that the election result confirmed the referendum result when in fact it did the opposite.

Some form of PR which makes more votes count. In the 2019 GE the Conservatives got an MP for every 38,000 votes, Labour for every 50,000, Lib Dems for every 336,000 and the Greens for 866,000. This has to be wrong by any measure.
What we have now is like 8 friends going out. 3 want to go for a coffee in Costa, 2 for a pint in the Red Lion, 2 for a pint in the Nags and 2 for a pint in the Windmill. Under our voting system they all end up going for a coffee at Costa because it has a majority despite the fact more people want a beer. Under some form of PR they'd end up going to a pub where, incidentally, you can usually get coffee too.
I think we had a referendum about that, you lost on that one as well

So democratically they decided to stay less democratic. A contradiction I feel. But ...
Post Reply